by Jack lee
This may be one of the shortest articles I have ever written, because the facts I have copied speak for themselves, nothing more needs to be said:
Abraxis Health, a unit of Los Angeles-based Abraxis BioScience Inc, opened a new plant that will create 200 jobs in 2010 — in Phoenix. This follows the company’s Phoenix expansions that occurred in 2007 and 2008.
Alza Corp. In 2007 eliminated about 600 jobs in drug R&D while also exiting its Mountain View, Calif., HQ. At the time the company said that its 1,200-person Vacaville facility will continue to operate. But the Vacaville Reporter on Oct. 23, 2009 revealed that the plant is being offered for sale by J&J, its parent company. It’s unclear if more layoffs are in the facility’s future.
American AVK, a producer of fire hydrants and other water-related products, moved from Fresno to Minden, Nevada.
American Racing moved its auto-wheel production to Mexico, ending most of its 47-year operation in California.
Apple Computer has expanded in other states, most recently with a $1 billion facility planned for North Carolina.
Audix Corporation relocated from Redwood City, Calif., and to accommodate growth moved to a 78,000-square-foot facility in Wilson, Oregon.
Apria Healthcare Group of Lake Forest is shifting jobs from California to Overland Park, Kansas, a K.C. Suburb.
Assurant Inc. Cut 325 jobs in Orange County and consolidated positions in Georgia, Ohio and South Carolina.
Automobile Club of Southern California placed 1,100 jobs in Texas.
Barefoot Motors, a small “green” manufacturer, moved from Sonoma and will grow in Ashland, Oregon.
Bazz Houston Co., Located in Garden Grove, has slowly been building a workforce of about 35 people in Tijuana. In early 2010 the company said it expects to move more jobs to Mexico, citing cost and regulatory difficulties in Southern California.
Beckman Coulter, a biomedical test equipment manufacturer headquartered in Brea, relocated part of its Palo Alto facilities to Indianapolis, Indiana, two years ago. In early 2010, it’s making a multimillion-dollar investment to expand and create up to 100 new jobs in Indiana. The company said the area offers a “favorable business environment and lower total cost of operations, plus a local work force with strong skills in both engineering and manufacturing.”
Bild Industries Inc., which specializes in business news, directories and market reports, moved to Post Falls, Idaho, from Van Nuys, a part of the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles.
Bill Miller Engineering, Ltd., suffering under the “hostile business climate” in California and Los Angeles County, moved from Harbor City to Carson City, Nevada.
BMC Select has conducted an unusual relocation. The company, which had shifted its headquarters from Idaho to San Francisco, relocated its H.Q. Back to Boise in January 2010. The building materials distributor said that regaining its footing in Boise retained access to high-quality employees while reducing wage and occupancy costs.
BPI Labs, which formulates, manufactures, and fills personal care products for the health and beauty industry, relocated from Sacramento to Evanston, Wyoming, a move the company’s owner called “very successful . . . . It felt good and we’ve never looked back.
Buck Knives after 62 years in San Diego moved to Post Falls, Idaho.
CalPortland Cement has announced in late 2009 closure of its Riverside County plant because of new environmental regulations from a state law (AB 32). The company’s CEO wrote, “A cement plant cannot be picked up and moved, but the next new plant probably won’t be built in California meaning more good, high paying manufacturing jobs will be lost to Nevada or China or somewhere.”
California Casualty Group left San Mateo for Colorado, cutting operating costs to remain competitive.
CalStar Products Inc., headquartered in Newark, Calif., in the San Francisco Bay Area, in January 2010 was awarded $2.44 million in federal clean energy tax credits. The company said in the future it expects to build additional plants in the Mississippi Valley and the East Coast. In late 2009 CalStar opened a plant in Caledonia, Wisconsin.
Checks-To-Go moved to Utah where workers’ comp rates helped make the troubled company healthier.
Chivaroli & Associates, a healthcare-related insurance service based in Westlake Village, Calif., moved a regional office to Spokane, Washington.
CoreSite, A Carlyle Company, is delaying a Santa Clara project while it expands its data center in Reston, Virginia.
Creators Syndicate may flee L.A. because it operates like a Banana Republic.
Creel Printing Left Costa Mesa for Las Vegas and So Cal loses 60 more jobs.
Dassault Falcon looked at building an aircraft services facility in Riverside County but instead located in Reno.
DaVita Inc., moved its HQ from Los Angeles to Denver; expects to see millions of dollars in savings over time.
Denny’s Corp., – the large restaurant chain – once had its headquarters in La Mirada, later in Irvine, Calif, and then moved to Spartanburg, South Carolina. In fairness, I note the move occurred in the early 1990’s. However it’s noteworthy because the company was founded in California and its growth over time created HQ jobs in another state.
Digital Domain, the Academy-Award-winning visual effects studio based in Venice, Calif, placed new studios in Vancouver, British Columbia, and Port St. Lucie, Florida, which combined will have about 500 employees. The facilities will allow the company to reduce costs while continuing to deliver cutting-edge work.
Ditech, headquartered in Costa Mesa, announced in January 2010 a 269-job cut and is moving most activities to the GMAC Financial Services (parent company) headquarters in Fort Washington, Pennsylvania. In 2007, Ditech relocated some workers from Costa Mesa to Phoenix. A once robust Costa Mesa facility employing hundreds will be down to 20 or 30 workers.
DuPont Fabros Technology suspended a $270 million Santa Clara data center project in favor of one in Ashburn, Virginia.
eBay, based in San Jose, will create 450 jobs in Draper, Utah, in a new $334 million operations, customer support and data center.
EDMO Distributors, Inc., a world-wide wholesaler of aircraft avionics, test equipment, and pilot supplies, moved its HQ from Valencia, Calif., to Spokane Valley, Wash. Since, it has built a larger headquarters in the city’s Mirabeau Point community complex.
Edwards Lifesciences based in Irvine will expand with 1,000 employees not in California but in Draper, Utah.
EMRISE Corp. completed its HQ move from Rancho Cucamonga to Eatontown, NJ, in May 2009. The company said the move “will result in additional annualized cost savings of approximately $1 million and facilitate improvements in operating efficiency”. . . . The cost savings associated with relocating our corporate headquarters will start immediately. . . The aggregate total of these expense reductions will increase our profitability and cash flow in this and succeeding years and, over time, substantially improve our ability to further reduce our long term debt.
Facebook, based in Palo Alto, will expand in a major way in Oregon by locating a custom data center in Prineville. It will be a 147,000-square-foot facility costing $180 million and will employ 200 workers during construction and another 35 full-time once operating in 2011.
FallLine Corporation Left Huntington Beach, where they were being “hammered” with multiple governmental regulatory fees, for Reno, Nevada.
Fidelity National Financial left Santa Barbara for Florida, spurred by California’s “oppressive” business environment.
First American Corp., based in Santa Ana, will open a call center in March 2010 not in California but in Phoenix, where it expects to employ about 400 people within two years.
Fluor Corp. moved its global headquarters from Aliso Viejo to Irving, Texas, with about 100 employees asked to relocate while the company planned to hire the same number there. In 2006, when Fluor moved into its new headquarters building, a company statement said: “The official dedication had a decidedly Texas theme” as a horseshoe was raised on the building, a time-honored Texas tradition.
Foxconn Electronics, a large contract electronics maker, moved some of its Fullerton operations to Dallas.
Fox Family moved its farming operations to Cookeville, TN. All employees moved with the firm.
Fuel System Solutions moved its headquarters from Santa Ana to New York.
Gregg Industries, owned by Neenah Enterprises Inc., in Wisconsin, closed a 300-employee foundry in El Monte foundry under pressure from the South Coast Air Quality Management District to make $5 million in upgrades. The company didn’t want to make the investment in the difficult economic climate so it decided instead to leave the state.
Helix Wind Inc. may move its research and development, engineering, and testing departments from San Diego to “more supportive” Oregon.
Hewlett-Packard, HQ’d in Palo Alto, at various times has moved jobs to Tennessee and Texas.
Hilton Hotels Corp. in 2009 is moving from its longtime corporate H.Q. in Beverly Hills to a new office in Tysons Corner, Virginia.
Hino Motor Manufacturing USA moved from California to Williamstown, West Virginia, in 2007, where it now employs about 100 workers. The company has growth plans to “Raise Hino’s presence from medium-heavy/heavy-duty trucks to all ranges of trucks” and an aggressive program to improve fuel economy and emissions. The company builds trucks under its own brand and also manufactures Toyota-branded vehicles.
Intel Corporation, HQ’d in Santa Clara, has chosen to expand operations in neighboring states
Intuit of Mountain View created a customer support office (110 people) not in California but in Colorado because of lower operating costs.
Intuit placed a data center near Quincy, Washington.
Intuit also located Innovative Merchant Solutions LLC in Las Vegas as part of a $1.8 million investment in Nevada.
J.C. Penney closed it Sacramento call center and moved the work to five out-of-state centers.
Kimmie Candy Co., a manufacturer that was started in 1999, moved from Sacramento to Nevada in 2005. “I really don’t have a lot of regrets about moving up to Reno,” said owner Joe Dutra.
Klaussner Home Furnishings in closing its La Mirada manufacturing plant will maintain its NC and Iowa operations.
Knight Protective Industries moved to Oregon “where 4-day work weeks were permitted by the state” and wanted by the employees.
Kulicke & Soffa Industries Inc. announced in February 2010 that it is closing its Irvine plant, laying off 56 people, and will shift the work to Malaysia and Singapore. The facility had been owned by Orthodyne Electronics Corp., which Kulicke & Soffa bought in 2008.
LCF Enterprises, which makes specialized high-end amplifiers used by researchers, medical professionals and others, moved from Camarillo, Calif., to Post Falls, Idaho.
Lennox Hearth Products Inc., in Orange, Calif., will lay off 71 workers and by March 2010 will transfer the jobs to Nashville and Union City, Tennessee, “to reduce costs and increase operating efficiencies.”
Lyn-Tron, Inc., a supplier of electronic hardware, moved from Los Angeles to Spokane, Wash. Their website has a rather California(ish) statement: “Our commitment is to maintain a manufacturing environment that is progressive and safe, where our employees are able to achieve their personal objectives, thereby adding to their quality of life and to the community in which they live.”
Mariah Power, a “green” manufacturer of small wind turbines, moved from California to Nevada and in 2009 teamed up with another company to begin production in Manistee, Michigan.
Maxwell America, a boating equipment maker, in February 2010 closed its Santa Ana offices and moved them to Hanover, Md. One reason given was the indirect impact of California environmental regulations. A company official said over the years many California boat builders relocated to the Midwest and East where they don’t face the same restrictions.
This article, cut and pasted from Nationalpolicyinstitute.org conveniently leaves out how many jobs have been created in the same time frame.
Regardless, you should forward this to Dan Logue. This Summer, when asked about how many jobs have been lost because of AB32, he was unable to answer the question. This oughtta help him out–he can cite that cement plant.
I assume you are going to tell us why each of these companies left, or are you going to lump them all together and offer a blanket reason?
Quentin,
The number of jobs created may matter. However, it would only matter if the same issues that caused the loss in jobs (regulation and costs) or the loss of the jobs themselves were the reason new jobs were created and more jobs were created than were lost. If this isn’t the case, your argument that we need to consider the number of jobs created is a little mis-direction. If the jobs created would have been created anyway than the issue of the loss of the jobs has nothing to do with the jobs created. I think anyone can see we would be far better off if no jobs were lost in addition to the creation of the new jobs.
Dan Logue has actually been circulating this list as well.
No one can really say for sure how many jobs have left for a specific reason without somehow finding every business owner and calling them and asking. That said, I don’t remember the article about Dan Logue referenced here and question the source. Not that it matters, anyone can be put on the spot with questions they might not have an answer to at the moment.
The whole reference is off subject anyway. Jobs are leaving California, many of them the same technology jobs that liberals say will save our state. Facebook, and other “pro-green” companies who claim to support AB32, are leaving our state and expanding elsewhere. Guess they don’t like the higher costs either.
Reasons were stated.
2009 – 800,000 jobs lost in California, 200,000 more yet to go. Says study…
“The state budget crisis is a dangerous aftershock to a region still reeling from the foreclosure earthquake” – Jeff Michael, director of the Business Forecasting Center, University of the Pacific.
The University of the Pacific released its newest look at the state and regional economy today, predicting 1 million or more layoffs before this recession finally ends in the fourth quarter of 2009. It’s not pretty. The full report, being released next week, says the Central Valley will take some of the hardest blows because of recent tax hikes and thousands of layoffs coming as state and local governments downsize.
Unemployment will peak at 12.3 percent early next year and double-digit joblessness will persist through the end of 2011, it says. Look for Sacramento to bet back to its pre-recession employment levels at the end of 2013, says the report. Details all in the release above.
Let’s not forget jobs “saved” or “created” with stimulus money. How many of those will be lost when stimulus money dries up and no longer props them up?
Is it any wonder the picture is distorted?
The bottom line is that people that live in California need jobs. The companies that are leaving or expanding in other states or countries, instead of staying and expanding in California will not be hiring Californians.
The latest unemployment stats from the Bureau of labor statistics cannoit be denied or smoothed over:
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm
California unemployment rate is currently 12.4
Good point Tina, that reckless spending has created a few temporary jobs, many in the government and when the funding dries up where are we then? I don’t know either, but I think we are worse off than if we had not gone there…
Quentin, this was sent to me by a friend, wasn’t cut and pasted from the source you quoted, but I appreciate you checking into the source. It’s helpful.
Jack,
You listed 61 companies but only 12 listed reasons.
I say the other 49 left the state because of racist comments made by California bloggers. 🙂
Besides the two specific reasons I will address below, the others were:
regulatory difficulties
lower total cost of operations
reducing wage and occupancy costs
cutting operating costs
reduce costs
cost savings
regulatory fees
lower operating costs
reduce costs and increase operating efficiencies
indirect impact of California environmental regulations
Which regulations are they talking about? I don’t like taxes, but I do like drinking clean water and breathing clean air.
What operating costs? Rent? Are you suggesting rent controls? Wages? Are you suggesting wage controls?
Specifically, a cement plant complained about the costs of environmental regulations from a state law (AB 32). Cement plants are the greatest single source of CO2. The cement industry knows this and companies are trying to clean up their plants. CalPortland should be ashamed of itself.
Secondly, a foundry in a metropolitan area is upset the South Coast Air Quality Management District it to make $5 million in upgrades to keep the air clean for the millions that live around it. I say good riddance to irresponsible businesses.
What say you?
Well for starters Mark, we didn’t get rid of any irresponsible businesses, we just moved them across an arbitrary line and lost their revenue and the jobs they provided. So I don’t see that as a win for California’s economy or ecology.
As for clean air and clear water, we share that feeling. Then again who here is against that?
I think its all about a matter of degree, that degree or extent which you are willing to punish and burden businesses verses what you will accomplish.
The reps and dems are at odds over the degree.
And lets face it, the dems have come up with a lot of pie in the sky BS to support their inviromental legislation which has punished uncessarily farms and businesses.
The spotted owl fiasco was one big lie to stop logging – I know I am going to regret saying that one because now I bet I’m going to have to come up with volumes of supportive data and in the end it won’t matter – we still won’t agree. ; )
Mark one thing that might help is if greens and legislators took a less adversarial stance with respect to business. You never take into consideration the effect your plans have on business..the standard respose is tough beans!
That cement plant has most likely been operating for decades. What will be needed to bring it into compliance is costly. You don’t care. You don’t care about the business surviving or the people that work at the business as long as you get your way. That company did not set out to create C02 it set out to deliver a needed product. If greens are so certain that C02 is a threat maybe they should come up with a way to pay for the clean up costs so that businesses can continue to do business.
Green Democrats (and some Republicans) have shifted from protecting the people from real environmental dangers to creating money making scams and pushing for greater government power and control.
Jack if you need help with that owl research let me know 😉
Jack,
Since smelter pollutants are heavier than gas, they fall out much closer to the source than CO2. So, having Gregg Industries leave the state means California has cleaner air.
This pollutant vs gas is also why I oppose cap and trade. CO2 is not produced alone, and if we shift CO2 production trade, we also shift pollution production.
So, how much pollution are you for? Just curious. : )
I like California’s environment, and I do not want to lesson regulation in a race to the bottom strategy with Texas or Louisiana.
Tina,
Asbestos plants had also been producing a product for decades, and they had to cleanup their act or go out of business. Are you saying that stopping asbestos production was bad?
How about lead gasoline and catalytic converters? The same cost argument was trotted out then. Are you saying that was a bad decision?
Greenhouse gasses are the same. Many cement factories in the state are complying, and the concern over cement CO2 has led to breakthrough technology in California as one company has discovered how to make cement that actually draws CO2 out of the atmosphere as it hardens, much like coral.
I think very deeply about these issues. You seem to be the cavalier one when talking about environmental protection.
Ps. to PS – The owl issue was not about owls.
The problem with AB32 is that we already have clean air and water laws for California, we don’t need new regulations for problems that scientists don’t agree exists. Whether man-made carbon has a real affect on our planet is still in question.
What is not in question is that tough new regulations drive out businesses and jobs. Those jobs were once held by working-class people whose taxes helped support out state. As more and more of them leave, more teachers and firemen will have to be laid off. It is that simple.
Jack’s point is also correct that, as these companies go to state’s with less stringent standards, pollution will likely go up. So California will have less jobs but more pollution with laws like AB 32.
Unless you are a complete ideologue who believes in sacrificing our economy on the altar of environmental absurdity, AB 32 has to be stopped. The only surefire way voters can do that now is by voting YES ON PROP 23.
Mark what I think first of all is that regulation of this type should be based on sound science rather than special interest hype. I also think there should be a time frame for compliance that works for individual companies (within reason).
I’m damn tired of the thinking that makes businesses the enemy, that calls business evil and refuses to acknowledge the value and contribution that business makes.
The notion that any person would be for pollution is just plain nuts. The notion that people and business have not been willing to comply with environmental laws and clean up or create the necessary technologies, methods and tools for that purpose is also nuts.
I also think that when scientists with credentials have expressed doubts about the findings regarding C02 they should be taken seriously and treated with respect. Since they are not green science has received a big black eye…I’m thinking well deserved.
You wrote: “Many cement factories in the state are complying, and the concern over cement CO2 has led to breakthrough technology in California as one company has discovered how to make cement that actually draws CO2 out of the atmosphere as it hardens, much like coral.”
If that is true then the market will force other cement factories to do the same…yes Mark, they will choose to do it without coercion. They will do it in order to stay competitive. They will do it because at some point when their equipment breaks down the new technology will be all that’s available. They will do it when it is financially feasable to do it. Only a person who believes business people are different (evil) would think they have to be forced and controlled.
This is not an emergency situation…no matter what old Al has said. Cleaner methods of production are being developed all the time.
As Iv’e said before, the good that the left does is bringing things to the attention of the public. The need to coercively control often goes too far and in some cases does more harm than good..
Steve and Tina,
Climate change is real, and here now.
This summer was the hottest on record, and 2010 is shaping up to beat 1998 as the hottest year ever. 19 counties set all-time records this summer, some by 5 degrees.
So, do you want to argue regulation, or climate change?
Are you Steve saying that the companies left because of AB 32? Because as you can see above, that is not what the companies said.
Tina, should we have left asbestos to the market? How about lead paint? CFCs?
“I think very deeply about these issues. You seem to be the cavalier one when talking about environmental protection.” Mark from CSUC
I’m glad that you do too Mark, the more we all understand about our climate the better. But, I’m a bit taken aback when you think I am “cavalier” about this issue. I’m really not, I take it quite seriously. I want clean air, water and unspoiled soil just like you.
Where we seem to differ is how quickly we need to act to shut down some of these (minor to major) pollution problems. Some are very specific infrastructure relevant businesses and we have no alternative to fill the void if you close them down.
You seem to want to plunge headlong into draconian measures to stomp out of existence every business that produces something that pollutes. You want to close up people’s fireplaces in the midst of winter because they are emitting too many particulates.
Mark…do you really think if we did absolutely everything you want and right away that America would stop global warming?
And if that answer is no, what price will we have paid for that nobel gesture? What would be the immediate human toll Mark? I care about subjecting anyone to uncessary cures for something that may or may not be preventable.
You seem to think this is all about coprorate money on our side, but that is only a very small part of it. Sure, we care about the economy, but the economy is directly linked to people’s every day lives….I care about this and this is a quality of life issue for me and lots of us. It’s not about protecting US Steel from being forced to put expensive scrubbers in smoke stacks – it’s about the misery index and how draconian ecological measures would impact that index.
So, everything you propose that will surely cause misery better be damned justifiable or it’s not going to happen. The obstacle you face in the global warming crusade is that most of us believe that at worst, mankind is barely accelerating whgat is inevietable.
Many of the worlds best scientist say flatly that we caught in a historical cycle of weather change. Are we willing to trash our economy in order to stave off a .05% temperature change over the next 50 years?
Mark, I know your heart is in the right place and I also know I am not telling you anything you haven’t heard before. However, please consider what I have said about making sure that if we DO shut down businesses and cost jobs that it’s worth it? You need to be very careful about this stuff and try to avoid being “cavalier” about closing up businesses! Back ONLY that legislation which is reasonable, prudent and based in provable, hard science. Otherwise you lose credibility and your pleas for fighting global warming will be compromised.
Mark: “Climate change is real, and here now.”
As it has been from the beginning!
This summer was the hottest on record
Not in the USA:
http://beforeitsnews.com/story/167/068/NOAA:_Fourth_Warmest_U.S._Summer_on_Record.html
Many states in the Eastern portion of the country experienced high temperatures. This follows a winter of cold temps. But not all states have been breaking heat records:
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/09/summer_2010_was_great_for_the.html
The average temperature through the summer was 70.4 degrees, making 2010 the 11th-warmest summer in the past 60 year. Nights didnt get as cool as usual. The average low temperature all summer was 60.9 degrees. Thats the sixth-warmest average low summer temperature, according to computations by the Northeast Regional Climate Center at Cornell University.
The middle part of the coutry had closer to normal temps over the summer but much of the west was cooler. LA Times:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010/09/las-summer-ends-with-a-chill-it-was-the-coldest-in-decades.html
Wine country folk also experienced conditions that were cooler:
http://www.sthelenastar.com/articles/2010/09/13/columnists/jeff_popick/doc4c8856c637359198702337.txt
But more importantly fear mongering green activists have ignored or lambasted those scientists who take a more reasoned and measured approach to AGW warming. The following suggests that punishing regulation, especially during this economically catastrophic time is unwise:
http://www.int-res.com/articles/cr/17/c017p045.pdf
“Tina, should we have left asbestos to the market? How about lead paint? CFCs?”
Now you are being absurd! (And how did the green “cure” for those CFC’s work out for us)
When REAL dangers are discovered by HONORABLE ETHICAL SCIENTISTS of course we need to take steps to eliminate those problems. I see no reason to take a punishing approach nor to demonize business to accomplish the needed goals. It would make more sense for government to accommodate business in whatever way it could to support them in taking the right steps. Instead, nasty little, pardon the expression, S**TS, in the green movement use the Saul Alinski method to destroy those industries reputations and pressure legislators to write stupid overly punishing regulation. Jobs and the economy always take a hit when draconian, slash and burn, methods of government control are initiated. Consumers are impacted by higher prices for goods and the ridiculous elimination of perfectly fine products like the light bulb! Green alternative light bulbs have their own hazards, as I’m sure you know, are more expensive, and by some accounts don’t last longer as reported! Nothing has been gained! NOTHING!!! Yet the people that worked in the standard light bulb industry have lost their jobs.
It’s time to take a more responsible reasoned approach that includes considerations about economic sustainability!
“I think very deeply about these issues. You seem to be the cavalier one when talking about environmental protection.” Mark from CSUC
I’m glad that you do too Mark, the more we all understand about our climate the better. But, I’m a bit taken aback when you think I am “cavalier” about this issue. I’m really not, I take it quite seriously. I want clean air, water and unspoiled soil just like you.
Jack, I was writing to Tina because she writes things like this:
“Mark: “Climate change is real, and here now.”
As it has been from the beginning!
This summer was the hottest on record
Not in the USA:”
You understand the difference between climate and weather. She does not.
This was the hottest summer on record based on GLOBAL temperatures.
While some scientists disagree, the majority do not.
Mark: “You understand the difference between climate and weather. She does not. ** This was the hottest summer on record based on GLOBAL temperatures.”
Mark while it’s true I cannot speak scitist I do understand there is a difference. I like to tweek you because of the ways that climate alarmists have measured temperatures and because of the radical conclusions they claim will result. Some are so outrageous they deserve to be ridiculed.
As Jack indicated we are looking at (possibly) a .05% change over the next fifty years. This is not an emergency situation and yet legislation is being pushed as if we are all facing imminbent danger. This is just not OK.
“While some scientists disagree, the majority do not.”
You keep saying that but I haven’t seen an accounting. Climate change scientists have been in the public eye more because they have been about pushing that agenda for the past thirty or forty years. Also some of the “scientists” in support don’t have a degree in a related field making their vote not much better than mine or Jacks…they rely on what they read and are told.
I continue to be struck at the absolute unwillingness to bend from people on the left. Jack, myself and others have asked for consideration of economic consequences this legislation will have. People who believe as you do won’t even consider it. Your response is that it won’t matter if we are all under water or whatever horror you imagine…but what if that doesn’t happen? You seem not to care about that. This vision is childishly narrow and if allowed to prevail will result in permanent depression era conditions for many in our society as the economy will not improve significantly.
Mark,
There is still a big difference between climate change and global warming, we’re playing with words now. There are numerous, respected scientists who still point to a lot of flaws in the studies that point to man-made global warming and the causes of it. I saw an article today pointing out that arctic ice is actually increased right now.
Tina’s point has been that the majority of environmental policy has actually not helped as much as its hindered. When you reach the point where everyone is unemployed to please the green gods, what does it matter that we reduced pollution from 4 parts per billion down to 3 parts per billion? What’s worse, is when laws like AB 32 come into full effect, the air pollution will likely increase as all we will do is move manufacturing to places with less standards.
In the end, California is left with no jobs, no way to pay for social spending, and a dirtier environment. Where is your sympathy for the unemployed? Have you ever once thought of using the carrot instead of the stick?
Steve, you made an excellent point, the invironmental regulations have hurt more than they have helped. I see this in local farming and all the hoops farmers must jump thru today and I can only imagine what other industries face. We need good regulation based on sound science and that means a lot of restraint and thought must go with that legislation. Look at what we bought into with PTFE’s at the gas pump…we cleaned the air a bit at the cost of seriously polluting the soil and ground water. We just have to be smarter about this stuff.
“to please the green gods”
You mean, like George Bush? Arnold Schwarzenegger?
Our federal government, state government, and local government have all accepted the reality of global warming/climate change/climate disruption. You are in the very small minority. You are joined by a minority of the scientists.
Get off the green gods dead horse. It is not carrying you anywhere. Climate science is mainstream America.
What to do about is the current question.
I have a lot of compassion for those who will lose their jobs as we move from the old high/ dirty energy economy to the new low/clean energy economy, and I support training programs and transitional loans. I am willing to pay for them with my taxes. Are you?
Climate change is the slow emergency. The changes need to made now. The consequences will be later.
James Lovelock, the NASA scientist that developed the Gaia hypothesis of a living earth, says it is too late for us to stop the worst effects of climate change.
“Our global furnace is out of control. By 2020, 2025, you will be able to sail a sailboat to the North Pole. The Amazon will become a desert, and the forests of Siberia will burn and release more methane and plagues will return.”
Dr. James Hansen, the top US government climate scientist, disagrees. He thinks we still have time. Ten years to be precise. Hansen says that, “Over the next decade, critical policy decisions will be made with irreversible consequences for the future. If we do not stabilize greenhouse gas emissions soon, we may set in motion a process leading to collapse of the West Antarctic Greenland Ice sheets and, events that would raise global sea levels by over 40 feet, inundating many of the world’s major cities.
That was three years ago. We do not have time to wait.
Your lack of understanding of the science is apparent in statements like these:
“As Jack indicated we are looking at (possibly) a .05% change over the next fifty years”
Natural systems are non-liniar. Small changes produce big effects.
Water at 33 degrees is a liquid. Change it one degree, to 32 degrees, and it becomes a solid.
A two-four degree increase in temperature translates into a rising of the Sierra Snow Pack from an average of 6000 feet, to an average of 9000.
You are both smart locals. What a 3000 foot change in the snow pack mean to those of us downstream in the Sacramento Valley?
What are the chances of a catastrophic flood on the Feather taking out Oroville Dam?
.05%?
Mark: “Climate change is the slow emergency. The changes need to made now.”
Yes it’s such an emergency that greens and dems have blocked all efforts to build nuclear plants which, had they done so, would have been up and running for decades. they would have put us in a position to “transition” with a lot less shock. Dreams of transition may never materialize because the technologies most of you are willing to rely on cannot produce enough energy to replace coal and oil.
The number of people that will be hurt by this legislation, especially in an economy that is already reeling, will not be helped by retraining. Retraining does nothing for people when jobs are scarce.
“Natural systems are non-liniar. Small changes produce big effects.”
But are they really so BIG that we cannot adapt and adjust until the trend reverses as it has done in the past. I have not heard anyone that supports AGW refute the obvious, that these patterns are recurring and natural and man has little effect on the changes that occur.
“Water at 33 degrees is a liquid. Change it one degree, to 32 degrees, and it becomes a solid.”
A natural occurance!
“You are both smart locals. What a 3000 foot change in the snow pack mean to those of us downstream in the Sacramento Valley?”
It could mean a very tough period for those who have to live through it. it could mean massive migration as happened in the thirties. It is not necessarily a static event or one that continues to worsen. You guys sell this stuff like it will be the end to all life on earth and therefore we MUST DO SOMETHING!
I don’t buy it…sorry. You are welcome to continue to believe that humans are that important in the larger scheme and capable of destroying the earth. I just don’t.
One thing is certain. We will find out because if your scientists are correct all of the legislation in the world will not prevent the doom they project. the doom is inevitable no matter what we do. The legisaltion will line the pockets of anyone that has jumped on the green investment wagon, however and I’m thinking that is really the point. Al will be thrilled!
Mark,
You say there’s no green gods and then immediately turn around and talk about a Gaia hypothesis. Gaia sounds kinda religious if you ask me.
I was just a kid when scientists were telling everyone the earth was going to freeze. To my knowledge none of them were held accountable for any economic damage they caused with that scare. So when 2020 rolls around and the earth keeps on turning, I’m sure none of your favorite chicken littles will ever be held accountable for the loss to our economic and personal liberty losses we will suffer while the government takes advantage of the green panic.
BTW, none of my tax dollars are left for retraining of the working class. All the money went to the non-producers on welfare, and the working class has nothing left for the government to steal from us.
“It could mean a very tough period for those who have to live through it. it could mean massive migration as happened in the thirties. ”
. . . and this is to be compared to losing a few jobs?
Mark: “. . . and this is to be compared to losing a few jobs?”
Yes when the scenario you paint is built on a fantasy projection! We are NOW facing dire economic circumstances in this country. The poverty rate is greater than it was in the sixties. More people are in need of food stamps than ever before. people have lost their homes and life savings.
I cannot get over the callousness with which you approach the projected economic impact of this bill. California does not exist as an island. This bill isnt the only job killer people are dealing with right now.
If anyone knows what a bill like this will do to business its the small business person. He has to know what his costs are going to be moving forward in order to keep the doors open, much less expand and hire new people. He has to know whether it is feasible for him to even bother to keep the doors open. Either way it will cost consumers when new jobs fail to materialize, and/or jobs are lost.
And every household will also face rising costs. At Heritage:
Thats not small potatoes in any household. It means that those businesses are projecting rising prices to consumers based on the increased costs they will incur. It also means that those businesses will not be hiring to the degree they would if the bill did not go into effect. Californias unemployment rate is slightly above 12% now. What you are envisioning is hardly a few jobs. BUT WHAT DO YOU CARE?
We Californians are also being impacted by federal laws and policy that are job killers (health insurance for instance) and we are already reeling after nearly two years of economic hits and stagnation. Maybe you have not felt the pain that others are experiencing given the relative safety of your job but a lot of us have and dread what might be coming. Also from Heritage:
That should give some indication of the job killing effects of this type of legislation.
Nearly every piece of legislation, regulation, and taxes that have been hoisted on America by Democrats in the last few years are job killers…and you think we should go for more? I think that’s NUTS!
Source: http://blog.heritage.org/2010/04/06/it%E2%80%99s-time-to-terminate-california%E2%80%99s-cap-and-trade-system/
“Yes when the scenario you paint is built on a fantasy projection!”
This is a fantasy projection accepted by both political parties and their present/past two leaders.
I also find it comical that you attack university faculty for producing flawed studies on climate change for some vague financial gain, yet you give a pass to two CSU profs who produce a report that supports the views of the group that commission it. Why?
Sanjay Varshney and Dennis H. Tootelian are business professors at Sacramento State. They have a “consulting firm” that contracted with the Small Business Bureau to produce a report on the cost of AB 32 on small business, that just so happens to support the SBB political view.
The report has serious flaws. I posted the flaws. You dismissed them with out taking them seriously.
So, can I ask what your standard is for acceptable academic research? It appears at the moment to be purely ideological.
I also think it is farcical that you are up in arms about the prospect that a person could lose their job, but can casually dismiss the possibility that they lose their lives in a flood of the Feather River. You seem alarmed they may have to change employers, but cavalier about them having to change their addresses, as if the Okie migration was only a minor inconvenience.