byTina Grazier
The time has come to re-establish the America our founders envisioned!
Since the waning days of the George W. Bush presidency our country has been engaged, or should I say enraged, in discussion about mounting federal debt and out of control spending in Washington. The American public grows angrier by the day over what they see as a broken and damaging system that asks too much of private citizens. Approval ratings for Congress and the president have fallen to new lows. Some citizens are demanding cuts spending and legislation to reduce the size of government. Many of these first began to express their discontent at small local events called Tea Parties. Tea party protestors grabbed attention in a big way when thousands marched on the capitol in Washington DC. That was in September of 2009.
Tea Party fervor has remained constant ever since!
A shrinking minority of Americans still believe in big government. They insist the answer to our fiscal debt problem lies in forcing higher taxes on “rich” Americans and big corporations. They are particularly frustrated and angry that some of their fellow citizens refuse to go along with this idea and they resent the fact that their influence has blocked all efforts to raise taxes.
But there’s something onerous about the size of our government and it really should enrage everyone.
It isn’t just our debt that is outrageous but also the enormous and growing size of our government. We rarely talk about what it costs working citizens to sustain the terrible beast but Grover Norquis , writing in the Wall Street Journal today, reminds us what big government means to each and every ordinary working stiff:
The Tax Foundation divides total federal, state and local taxes by total national income to come up with Tax Freedom Day. This year America worked until April 12 to pay all taxes.
April 12th…that’s not too bad, right?
That’s just a little over a quarter of the year; we work one quarter for government and three quarters for ourselves. But wait a minute…that’s not the end of the story. The article goes on to explain that calculating the actual size and cost of government requires that we add to the revenues the debt, state and local spending, and the cost of complying with government regulations (no word about state and local debt):
When you include the costs of federal deficit spending and the regulatory burden this year, however, you don’t reach the Cost of Government Day until Aug. 12. Americans will work for 103 days to pay for federal spending, 44 days for state and local spending and 77 days to cover the cost of the regulatory burden.
Yes ladies and gentlemen the total demand that the big government beast makes is that you and I work our butts off all the way through August 12th. As of today, you can celebrate freedom for this year…as of today you are finally working for the benefit your own family!
This big government beast isn’t the government envisioned by Washington, Hamilton, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and Jay!
When the founders took up arms and risked and sacrificed everything they envisioned a land of free people living and working to provide for themselves and their posterity! It’s time to re-establish that vision so that future generations will know what it is to truly be free
Thanks Tina, keep ’em coming!
Excellent article Tina. Thank you for putting in black and white what many of us have wondered.
I do have one question. Your calculations must be based on averages or median incomes and I’m wondering if it excludes the 40% who do not pay any federal taxes? This would extend the tax free date much further out for those who do pay and shorten it for those who don’t. Wouldn’t it?
Wonder where the date will fall if taxing those earning $250k a year is increase to make them pay more of their fair share.
Tina: “A shrinking minority of Americans still believe in big government. They insist the answer to our fiscal debt problem lies in forcing higher taxes on “rich” Americans and big corporations.”
Why are you lying to your readers? You know perfectly well that it is not “a shrinking minority” that supports higher taxes on the rich and big corporations; the vast MAJORITY of Americans support this. The minority are those who oppose tax increases on the rich.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/10/new-cnn-poll-majority-want-tax-increase-for-wealthy-and-deep-spending-cuts/
“According to the poll, 63 percent say the super committee should call for increased taxes on higher-income Americans and businesses, with 36 percent disagreeing. And by a 57 to 40 percent margin they say the committee’s deficit reduction proposal should include major cuts in domestic spending.
But cuts in defense spending get a mixed review: Forty-seven percent would like the committee to include major cuts in military spending, with 53 percent saying no to such cuts.
Nearly two-thirds say no to major changes to Social Security and Medicare. And nearly nine in ten don’t want any increase in taxes on middle class and lower income Americans.”
Tina: “This big government beast isn’t the government envisioned by Washington, Hamilton, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and Jay!”
This is also pretty misleading because it implies that all these men had the same vision of how government should operate. The feuds between Hamilton and Jefferson over the size of government are particularly well known, and extremely important to our history. You and the Tea Party seem to be attempting to erase this history from your narrative.
Chris, the difference in governing between Hamilton and Jefferson were explained to me in grade school. I thought it basic common knowledge?
Outstanding and I agree with Juanita.
Jack: “Libby the difference in governing between Hamilton and Jefferson were explained to me in grade school. I thought it basic common knowledge?”
Huh? I don’t see any comment from Libby in this thread, and your comment says “Post Scripts replied to comment from Chris.” I agree that their differences are common knowledge, but this common knowledge seems to be ignored by the Tea Party, who want us to believe that the founders had one coherent vision that is beyond debate.
This is a total lie.
The Founding Fathers NEVER envisioned a government that could be totally bought. Well, actually, they did, they put in provisions that would allow for continuing improvements, but they have been stymied.
America was founded upon basic equality. That dream of equality has vanished.
The corporate mass media has convinced the easily-duped that they–the media–should only pay 4% of their income in taxes, while the duped would be lucky to get back any of the 15% that has been withheld from their paychecks their entire working lives.
The corporate media have duped “Peggy” into thinking 40% of Americans do not pay income taxes–as if Social Security and Medicare withholding are NOT taxes on income!!!!
Can’t you guys at least TRY to make an intelligent argument? This isn’t even close to being sincere!
Pathetic.
Re Chris: “Jack: “Libby the difference in governing between Hamilton and Jefferson were explained to me in grade school. I thought it basic common knowledge?
Huh? I don’t see any comment from Libby in this thread, and your comment says “Post Scripts replied to comment from Chris.”
Not that it matters. Chris, Libby, Quentin, what is the difference? The village idiots by any name are still the village idiots.
Back to the subject at hand …
Yes, this big government beast isn’t the government envisioned by Washington, Hamilton, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and Jay!
Neither was it by Pie Guevara and his forebearers.
Nor anyone else with a lick of sense.
As for Quentin Colgan’s comments … snore. This guy has been advocating violent revolution ever since his campaign for office in Chico floated like a lead goldfish in an empty fish tank.
I have to wonder, is it violent revolution in just Chico he wants to see, or is it at the federal level?
Who knows? Who cares?
Peggy: : Your calculations must be based on averages or median incomes and I’m wondering if it excludes the 40% who do not pay any federal taxes?”
The article states that the figures are based on what Americans “earn”. The number of days is calculated using an average or median wage. I guess what we “earn” includes capital gaines, interest and dividend income, although I could be wrong since this calculation is about how long Americans “work” to pay for the government beast.
Regardless, the time invovled is staggering.
Those who do not work are not germane to the subject. Of course if those who are capable to work and don’t were contributing it would shorten the number of days it takes to pay the beastly tab.
“Wonder where the date will fall if taxing those earning $250k a year is increase to make them pay more of their fair share.”
The way we have it set up they probably can’t set tax rates high enough to make much difference over time. People who are taxed at higher rates just find ways to avoid tax. This means less investment in the private sector and, as we are experiencing now, fewer jobs for Americans. The taxes built in to Obamacare that will soon kick in, the end to the Bush tax cuts, added EPA regulation, and inflation will all work together to eat up revenue and add to the debt.
Unless we reform and eliminate wasteful government programs and regulation we are screwed…slaves to the bureaucracy and the whims of the elite leadership class.
Chris: “Why are you lying to your readers? You know perfectly well that it is not “a shrinking minority” that supports higher taxes on the rich and big corporations…”
I’m not lying Chris I’m stating what I believe is true based on several polls and the fact that 40% of Americans self describe as conservative, 35% as moderate and only 21% as liberal. The trend is away from progressive liberal big government:
In April a poll done by AP showed that voters preferred spending cuts to tax hikes by a 62/29 margin
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/04/14/ap-poll-shows-6-in-10-americans-want-spending-cuts-not-tax-hikes/
In July of this year Investors Business Daily reported on how Obama and certain media outlets were using a gallup poll to mislead the people:
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/578556/201107151857/No-US-iDoesnt-i-Want-Tax-Hikes.aspx
The article goes on to cite the results of a poll they conducted:
Rasmussen poll, August 12
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/business/jobs_employment/august_2011/voters_favor_tax_cuts_over_government_job_programs
http://hispanic-americans.com/blogs/news/archive/2011/07/22/poll-young-latinos-favor-cuts-in-taxes-and-federal-spending.aspx
The poll that will be most telling is the one that will take place in November of 2012, for now I see things trending away from liberal policies that have so badly damaged all chances for JOBS and economic growth.
” You and the Tea Party seem to be attempting to erase this history from your narrative.”
If we take our more recent history as a point of interest progressives have been steadily ignoring the narrative for eighty some years (since about 1930)…the Tea Party is interested in correcting that.
Q: “This is a total lie.”
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn!
“The Founding Fathers NEVER envisioned a government that could be totally bought.”
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn!
“America was founded upon basic equality”
Basic God given rights, freedom, and opportunity is the equality they envisioned…not some communal sharing venture.
“…has convinced the easily-duped that they–the media–should only pay 4% of their income in taxes…”
Delusions…and utter horse hockey!
We at PS have advocate for a simple tax system that is void of loop holes. Most of our commenters support this idea.
“The corporate media have duped “Peggy” into thinking 40% of Americans do not pay income taxes–as if Social Security and Medicare withholding are NOT taxes on income!!!!”
Q you are, once again, acting like a complete ass.
Peggy’s information is accurate. Discussions about the 40% who do not pay income taxes, many of whom also receive extra income as part of the deal, are ALWAYS based on those taxes which are specifically designated on your paystub, and accounted for seperately when reported, as federal witholding. MCare and SS are deducted and accounted for to the government seperately. Only a person bent on confusing the issue would pretend otherwise.
“Can’t you guys at least TRY to make an intelligent argument?”
I’ll bet you think you are talking to us! (Passed by a mirror lately?)
I know you think you’re the smartest guy in the room…you don’t have to keep trying to prove it!
I continue to await the day when you will humble yourself and just share what you know. (I guarantee this small change would entice people to listen…and to drop in at your blog)
Horse hockey????
You kill me, Tina!!!!
The first sign you are wrong is your denial of what you, yourself wrote in your own blog.
The second sign is the insults.
ALWAYS with the liberal insults, Tina!
At least I don’t viit my own blog 200X per day just to get my numbers up. Y’see, I don’t equate numbers with being right.
Oh! That’s a third sign! Claiming more views = you being right!
*KISS*
I love the show, Tina!
Does this sound like anyone we know here on PS?
===============
What are the signs and symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
Signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder may include:
Grandiose sense of one’s own abilities or achievements
Fantasies about having exceptional power, attractiveness or success
Sense of belonging to an exclusive group of people who truly understand each other
Need for constant praise
Expectations of special treatment
Exploitation of other people
Lack of empathy for other people
Envy of other people or a belief that you are the subject of other people’s envy
Haughty or arrogant behaviors
Reacts to criticism with feelings or rage, shame, or humiliation
Individuals with narcissistic personality disorder may come across as conceited or snobbish. They often monopolize conversation. They may belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior. When they don’t receive the special treatment to which they feel entitled, they may become very impatient or angry.
People with narcissistic personality disorder tend to seek out individuals whom they perceive as equal to their own self-image or to whom they attribute the same special talents and qualities they see in themselves. They may insist on having “the best” of everything car, athletic club or social circles.
Their personal relationships and interactions are driven by the need for admiration and praise. Consequently, people with narcissistic personality disorder value others primarily according to how well those individuals affirm their unrealistic self-image. This limited value of others usually means that people with the disorder aren’t interested in or aren’t capable of perceiving the feelings or needs of others. They may take advantage of other people to make themselves look as good as they imagine.
“Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn!”
This is somebody’s idea of substantive rebuttal?
“Taxation is slavery” ???
Taxation is the freakin’ font of civilization (astoundingly), and statements like the above are the kant of childish ignoramuses … too feeble to take a hand in their own government.
So there.
Q: “The first sign you are wrong is your denial of what you, yourself wrote in your own blog.”
I never wrote, “…the media–should only pay 4% of their income in taxes…”
What are you talking about?
“ALWAYS with the liberal insults, Tina!”
I take on liberal thought because i find it profoundly lacking and in some cases downright destructive. I will trade insults with liberals who choose to insult. I do not engage in insults without being so provoked.
What’s your excuse?
“At least I don’t viit my own blog 200X per day just to get my numbers up. Y’see, I don’t equate numbers with being right.”
How grandiose of you!
The truth is I visit my blog to talk with people. I love people. All kinds of people! I love to discuss and argue, to laugh and cry…I love it when people say something profound or funny…I love it when someone moves me to tears. I have always loved the written word and the joy of quietly drinking in what someone else has to share.
I couldn’t tell you what our numbers are…or what your numbers are…or even how many times I make a comment…I don’t care about the numbers.
“*KISS* I love the show, Tina!”
Thank ya darlin…I love it too! And thanks for the kiss…on the cheek, of course!
Libby: “This is somebody’s idea of substantive rebuttal?”
No dear heart, this is an example of someone being bored by someone who pededles the same old song no matter what the topic.
“Taxation is the freakin’ font of civilization”
What a completely arrogant position! It says the masses are incapable and doomed except for the goodness of some citizens to steal as much as possible from others (so they can feel good about their “charitable contribution” to the less fortunate). To accomplish this grand compassion scheme a constantly growing class of incompetent demanding immature adults must be cultivated. They must be taught that they are entitled to “help”…and cell phones! This voting block is built by convincing people they are victims, throwing morals and God out the window, wrecking the family, and adopting a soft, anything goes attitude toward beastly disfunctional behaviors.
“…too feeble to take a hand in their own government.”
I’d sooner see the good citizens of this country take on the problems themselves: educate their kids, adopt and teach moral behavior and kindness and respect toward others, and become responsible and productive. Then we could all share in contributing to a limited federal government tasked with issues of the law and defense of the nation. Then we could all contribute more at the state and local level to solve problems that are characteristic to various regions. The more productive and stable the people the less government we require.
You just don’t listen sweetie…you’re too busy constructing that straw image in your head.
“So there” to you too!
Re Peggy’s: “What are the signs and symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder?”
Naw, couldn’t be anyone who frequents these pages because his own insignificant, stupid, crummy little blog doesn’t get jack cheese for traffic.
This just in from the How Big Government Works Department (Or Thank You Harry Reid!):
Government pays for empty flights to rural airports
“On some days, the pilots with Great Lakes Airlines fire up a twin-engine Beechcraft 1900 at the Ely, Nev., airport and depart for Las Vegas without a single passenger on board. And the federal government pays them to do it.
Federal statistics reviewed by The Associated Press show that in 2010, just 227 passengers flew out of Ely while the airline got $1.8 million in subsidies. The travelers paid $70 to $90 for a one-way ticket. The cost to taxpayers for each ticket: $4,107.”
http://tinyurl.com/3d8tw9f
Madam, you have described me to a “T”
Thank you, and keep listening.
“I’d sooner see the good citizens of this country take on the problems themselves: educate their kids, adopt and teach moral behavior and kindness and respect toward others, and become responsible and productive. Then we could all share in contributing to a limited federal government tasked with issues of the law and defense of the nation. ”
Wow! Let’s all sign up for Tina’s Utopia!!!!
NO taxes! No government! Everybody is allowed to do their own thing–like some kind of hippie universe!!!!
Wowee!!
Nobody will suffer because everybody loves everybody else, and there is NO greed!!
Roll another one, girlfriend! We’ll sit around the campfire and sing Kumbayah whilst we smoke it!!!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Ha!
Tina: “I’m not lying Chris I’m stating what I believe is true based on several polls and the fact that 40% of Americans self describe as conservative, 35% as moderate and only 21% as liberal. The trend is away from progressive liberal big government:
In April a poll done by AP showed that voters preferred spending cuts to tax hikes by a 62/29 margin”
Yes, when asked about raising taxes in general, people say they are opposed. But when asked specifically about raising taxes ON THE RICH, the majority says that they are in favor. Your original statement remains in error.
Libby: “Taxation is the freakin’ font of civilization”
You are completely right, Libby. The question is how much we should be taxed, not whether taxation itself should be done away with…when libertarians and Tea Partiers make extreme statements such as “taxation is theft,” they are usually being disingenuous; most of them don’t believe in zero taxation, but they are willing to say such incredible things in order to misdirect the debate.
Quentin, looks like you already smoked it…it’s official…you are an idiot.
Sadly, you are incapable of envisioning a system that works…not perfectly…but a darn sight better than the mess spawned by the hippy dippy progressive utopians of the sixties which has claimed the spirits and lives of so many poor souls.
Chris: “Yes, when asked about raising taxes in general, people say they are opposed. But when asked specifically about raising taxes ON THE RICH, the majority says that they are in favor. Your original statement remains in error.”
My original statement is as follows:
I was referring to the hard core political left (21% – down several points since 2008). My statement is accurate!
“The question is how much we should be taxed, not whether taxation itself should be done away with…”
Who has ever advocated doing away with taxes?
“…most of them don’t believe in zero taxation, but they are willing to say such incredible things in order to misdirect the debate.”
No they wisely use a photo of an outrageous homemade sign to grab attention and pique interest. Anyone who cares enough to read the content will not be “misdirected”…unless of course he’s a nitpicking progressive who enjoys misdirecting in order to change the discussion.
What must it be like to reside in the mind of someone who believes the very waters of life, that which sustains life, is the money that is taken from productive, contributing individuals and doled out to others who, without it they believe, would never survive! As if all or most were not capable of bettering their own lot in life.
This is a terrible way to think about other human beings…almost as if they were the unwanted pets that end up in a shelter. Even an abandoned pet is capable of making a stab at life left on his own; I know, I’ve taken more than a few of them in…LOL.
The font of civilization, secularly speaking, is morality, private property and the rule of law, without which we would experience anarchy and the brutality of survival of the fittest.
Libby apparently doesn’t mind that Americans must toil away for nearly 2/3 of the year to pay for government mush of which is entitlement spending, bureaucratic bloat, unnecessary or burdensome regulation, and interest on debt to pay for it all. She has no concerns that without reform it will soon become impossible for anyone to suppoort their own families needs or that the system has crippled otherwise healthy and capable human beings for generations.
The lefts unwillingness to address these concerns is difficult to grasp since they claim to care about people and to want the best for them.
You know what I do? I just scan down the paragraphs, lightly, and something always pops right out.
“Libby apparently doesn’t mind that Americans must toil away for nearly 2/3 of the year to pay for government mush of which is entitlement spending, ….”
First of all, for the average wage slave, it’s about 1/4 of the year. We were parting with 30 percent of our incomes, but lately (since the crash, actually), it’s come down to 25 percent.
Second, if we’re talking federal, in 2010 the SS/Medi share was 43% percent, with Defense at 20%, and the other 37% at other. Forty-three is a little high, but it is not most, or even “mush” of the budget… and we’re working on it. That is, we’re working on modifications. You seem to be panting for abolishment. It ain’t going to happen.
It especially ain’t going to happen if you keep fibbing the facts.
“What a completely arrogant position!”
I suppose it could be seen that way. Maybe more misanthopic than arrogant. I mean, look around.
But you can’t say we aren’t making progress. Initially, lords coerced taxes for the pretty much dual (and only) purposes of defending their fief and the source of their personal wealth. But slowly, over many hundreds of years, it dawned on the lords that the peasants were a damned sight more compliant if some of the taxes were spent on their betterment … and here we are: come to a point where some of the upper peasants have cultivated a fierce resentment toward the maintenance of the lower peasants, and are so, so, so very resentful that they want to overthrow the whole thing.
No dice. I know you think you could look after yourself, but you’re wrong. You are a peasant, not a lord. In fact, very few of the lords are lords, which is how the whole democracy thing caught hold, but we can’t go into that now.
Libby: “First of all, for the average wage slave, it’s about 1/4 of the year…”
So much for the habit of scanning! The article references a study that adds to what you think you know the cost per average for regulation and debt and state and local government. Under this all inclusive model we work until August 12th to pay the cost of government!
“But you can’t say we aren’t making progress”
Oh but I can! Conditions have deteriorated with progressive big government interference. Poor folk become permanent wards of the state. The family has broken up and kids are raising themselves on the street. The only progress you’re making is toward a living hell.
“But slowly, over many hundreds of years, it dawned on the lords that the peasants were a damned sight more compliant if some of the taxes were spent on their betterment…”
Aligned, still, with the arrogance of “the lords” in the land of yore, are we? Bloody hell, Libby! Your depiction of tax structures as they evolved in America bears zero resemblance to what happened on these shores, never mind what our founders envisioned and bequeathed to us.
“and here we are: come to a point where some of the upper peasants have cultivated a fierce resentment toward the maintenance of the lower peasants, and are so, so, so very resentful that they want to overthrow the whole thing.”
A lot of us who are cultivating fierce resentment are lower to middle class! Resentment is aimed toward those elites, many with sizable wealth, who fancy themselves as “making a difference” while spending other peoples money! Topping the list are John Kerry, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barack Obama, Barbra Streisand, Tom Hanks, Steven Spielberg and many others.
What’s sad is that they could do so much more with their own money, invested and overseen, that might have a prayer of actually making a difference in the lives of needy people. Instead they spend millions on fundraising dinner opportunities to elect idiots who will write laws to take money from others. Baaaah!
“I know you think you could look after yourself, but you’re wrong. You are a peasant, not a lord.”
It’s a little early to have been hitting the wine bottle…
“In fact, very few of the lords are lords, which is how the whole democracy thing caught hold, but we can’t go into that now.”
Oh but we can and I have…stay tuned for a post on our REPUBLIC…later this afternoon.
“The article references a study that …” panders to your prejudices in defiance of all objective reality.
Objective Reality: I get a paycheck. I know how much goes to SS, to Medicare, to the General Fund. It says right on the stub, and it’s 25%.
Tina, I wish you had some imagination, could think in wider terms. Of course Hamilton, Jefferson, and the rest of them were “lords”. They were smarter than everybody else, richer than everybody else. They had power and they used it … but in a much more enlightened manner than, say, the signers of the Magna Carta. That’s progress.
And they absolutely instituted the coersion of taxes toward the support of a more enlightened state than anything that had existed to that point.
And we have made improvements since.
But this: “What’s sad is that they could do so much more with their own money, invested and overseen, that might have a prayer of actually making a difference in the lives of needy people.”
Tina, how many times do we have to point out that you haven’t got a shred of historical evidence to support this statement … and that we’ve got several hundreds years worth of evidence to the contrary.
Hence, the last two hundred years of enlightened elaboration of the founders’ intent.
Libby: ” panders to your prejudices in defiance of all objective reality.”
I know you aren’t a complete moron so I will attempt to be patient. Like it or not this study is based on particular facts. If you would like to comment based on the study please do so. If you would prefer to do a different study so you can comment on that then PLEASE…write your own article and we will post it so we can all have fun. Is that simple enough for you?
“I get a paycheck. I know how much goes to SS, to Medicare, to the General Fund. It says right on the stub, and it’s 25%.”
Woo hoo and goodie for you, you can do basic math. What you do not see on your stub is the added cost in the price of items you buy that include the costs to business for useless and complex regulations…what is not on your stub is the cost of our debt that you are carrying. These are hidden taxes and the beauty for politicians is they get dumb broads and moronic dudes to blame business for it. My God it’s moronic!
“Tina, I wish you had some imagination, could think in wider terms.”
This from the woman who has just demonstrated she cannot think in wider terms and is completely lacking in imagination!
“Of course Hamilton, Jefferson, and the rest of them were “lords”. They were smarter than everybody else, richer than everybody else. They had power and they used it … but in a much more enlightened manner than, say, the signers of the Magna Carta. That’s progress.”
Nice try but no, they were not lords…you leave out all of the history from the landing at Plymoth…they came for freedom…religious freedom. The thing you call “progress” was the inevitable result of freedom girded by religious and moral underpinnings! Our unalienable rights were given by God…not the founders…not lords…they simply took note. Equality is a concept of the Bible…we are all Gods children and equal in his eyes. The founders were leaders…not lords.
“And they absolutely instituted the coersion of taxes toward the support of a more enlightened state than anything that had existed to that point.”
A more enlightened state? I’d love to hear your concept of enlightenment.
Taxes were referred to as contributions and were given willingly more than coerced for the defense of the nation, mostly. Heavy taxation was frowned upon as…note Jeffersons use of the words liberty and servitude (taxation is slavery):
http://usafoundingfathers.blogspot.com/2006/03/founding-fathers-original-tax-plan.html
“Tina, how many times do we have to point out that you haven’t got a shred of historical evidence to support this statement … and that we’ve got several hundreds years worth of evidence to the contrary.”
You can point it out all you want Libby, it’s your priviledge to talk out of your hat, but it would be a damn lie. There is a ton of historical evidence to support the fact that people can be taught and raised to take care of themselves…it’s how America was built. There is also a ton of evidence to show that private charities have a better track record for both use of funds and positive results than the government redistribution scheme. We’ve posted this information on Post Scripts before so I refuse (at this late hour) to do it again.
“Hence, the last two hundred years of enlightened elaboration of the founders’ intent.”
Hence a meaningless progressive patting of self on the back while completely igoring the harm and destruction of the last 100 years.
You got one thing right…you are very creative…you just keep making things up to suit yourself.
“you just keep making things up to suit yourself.”
I’m not making up nothing. 100 years ago in the U.S. an abandoned mother without means of support had no choice but to consign her kids to a (usually Catholic) orphanage. And we all know what went on in them places. Today, she gets a stipend, training, and keeps the kids with her. She ain’t much, but she is mother.
This is progress.
That you don’t want to pay for it makes me wonder about you.
Libby: “100 years ago in the U.S. an abandoned mother without means of support had no choice but to consign her kids to a (usually Catholic) orphanage. And we all know what went on in them places”
And 60 years ago, before womens lib, the sexual revolution (HA!), rampant drug use, free condoms and abortions for all, relaxed morals, easy divorce, turning away from religious training, and last but not least, the war on poverty most kids were raised in a two parent family, or they were adopted, or were cared for by relatives. The rest found homes in a few charitable places like Boys Town. You’re wrong, Libby, since the sixties we have not made “progress”…we have headed in exactly the wrong direction and are falling down a black hole.
“That you don’t want to pay for it makes me wonder about you.”
When I can I make sizable contributions to chgaritable organizations that have some success in actually heloping people beconme whole…in addition to paying my taxes. So don’t lecture me, thank you, you haven’t the slightest idea what you’re talking about!
That you are willing to pay into a system that breeds more needy, broken people makes me wonder about you. that you refuse to consider we may be going in the wrong direction or consider alternative approaches or reforms also makes me wonder about you…and most of the entire progressive/democrat body!
Libs, can’t speak for Tina, but I think at least 25% of the people on AFDC are probably ripping off the system and doing things with the money they shouldn’t. So, that means I endorse spending your tax money on 75% of them, hows that for being compassionate? I bet you think there are cheats in the system too – so are we all that far apart here?