Americans spent some $52 billion on Black Friday weekend. In addition to sweaters and iPods, though, shoppers were scooping up something else in large numbers: guns.
According to the FBI, which processes requests for background checks of prospective gun buyers, 129,166 such checks were performed on Black Friday, Nov. 25, breaking the previous single-day record — set on Black Friday 2008 — by nearly a third. The surge in gun sales was initially reported by USA Today.
Analysts who focus on firearms say this increase is part of a years-long trend toward increasing gun ownership. In a recent Gallup poll, 47 percent of respondents said there was a gun in the household, up from 41 percent just one year ago.
“A sign American’s are preparing for a second revolution?”
I certainly hope you are not encouraging such a thing. Your statement could easily be read that way, however.
This is deeply, deeply irresponsible.
Re: “A sign American’s are preparing for a second revolution?”
Nope. They are preparing themselves for —
Reduced police security as a result of bankrupt budgets.
Occutard riots.
Gang activity.
Criminal assault while in public areas.
Home invasion.
Concealed carry training.
Sport target shooting.
Competitive sport shooting from Cowboy to Skeet.
Hunting while you still can.
It is not about revolution. It is about self protection and fun. The only connection this spike has to “revolution” is the notion of protecting yourself and your family from brain dead morons who fancy themselves revolutionaries.
One of those brain dead morons frequents these environs. Guess who it is.
Well, Pie, I’m glad you don’t agree that a second American revolution is coming. But your fears over “riots” by Occupy Wall Street protesters are unfounded.
I’m not at all surprised that sales are up. My son wants a shotgun and I’m thinking of trading in my 9mm for one too.
More people are waking up to the fact that this country is headed for an economic breakdown and we will have to protect ourselves. When we run out of money and keep printing more until it is a worthless piece of paper who will work to protect us?
Margaret Thatcher was right.
“The problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people’s money.”
Re: Well, Pie, I’m glad you don’t agree that a second American revolution is coming. But your fears over “riots” by Occupy Wall Street protesters are unfounded.
Well LA DEE DAH!
I have no “fears”, you naive, self (snip). Nice try.
Peggy: “More people are waking up to the fact that this country is headed for an economic breakdown and we will have to protect ourselves.”
Protect ourselves against whom?
I find it funny that I was just called “self-aggrandizing” by a man who claims to have no fears.
Pie, when the liberal mindset enters into the conversation, he cant help it if he takes one thing out of context,(you have a good list of things we all need to pay attention to)it is his Ideology to attack something he does not favor, therefore the reference to ‘fear’ is just his mind wondering why people like guns and confused because he doesn’t think anyone should have that freedom of choice, align this the need of LARGE government to control others and eventually this will be the downfall of his political party.
Peggy Thatcher was not only right she was precient!
European socialism, government spending other peoples money, has tipped over and as the entire scheme crumbled what did we see…RIOTS! People screaming like babies…or banchees…because they might not be able to retire at age 50, take eight weeks of vacation every year, and work a 35 hour week:
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-3475_162-704571.html
Chris: Protect ourselves against whom?
The millions of left-wing, socialist, progressives who believe they are entitled to take what was not only earned by those who worked for their salaries, but also the things and food that they bought with their earnings. The share the wealth masses will not stop with taking the money from the pockets of those that worked for it, they will demand and take food and items them feel entitled to.
Just look at what is going on all over the world and even in the US. Riots spreading like a wildfire from one country to another. I expect next spring it will start up here again too. More smashing of windows and looting. Just look at how many teens are getting involved in large groups swarming 7-11s and other small stores and taking stuff without paying for it. These are kids! Where did they learn they could take what they wanted? Their parents, school, community, sports figures, entertainers, elected leaders? Yes, to all.
Before you ask, no, Im not paranoid just have my eyes open and live in the real world and not a fantasy one. The Mormon religion believes in being prepared to take care of themselves not only with a years supply of food, but also by building a community for protection and support. We all could learn from their example. I’m sure many of them have a gun or two for protection and after firing a warning shot will do what they need to do to protect themselves.
A close friend’s wife had me help her buy him a shotgun for Christmas. It’s a great gift that will last for many years, could even be handed down to their kids. You can’t say that about a new Ipod.
If he does a little hunting this season, he can put some fresh ducks on the family table. For home defense, there is nothing more effective than a shotgun.
And yes, if a an Occupy movement was to get out of control and people needed to defend their properties, it’ll come in handy then too.
Good answer Pie. Today my family is going hunting, having FINALLY saved up money for licenses, club fees, and of course, ammo. They went the first time last week, brought me a little hen, today I hope they will bring me a big rooster to put in the pan with her.
I like to have mine with horseradish and cranberry sauce. It makes me feel like a French public worker!
Let us not forget our POS prize owning president has made it his job to make sure the Mexican drug cartels are will armed with weapons provided by him and his DOJ.
Let us also not forget the occutards did riot and did shut down the Oakland ports.
Let us not forget our own little occutard made death threats on this very blog!
Those seem like pretty good reasons to own a gun and know how to use it.
Hmmm…the “educator” does nothing to educate with his rant against phantom fascists that he will not define. What has he contributed? How will our readers understand what he means? Why does he even bother when he has nothing of value to contribute?
Re The Self Aggrandizing Tool’s: “I find it funny that I was just called “self-aggrandizing” by a man who claims to have no fears.”
Well well well! What do you know! Chris is up to the same game he always plays with two of his favorite (and always badly applied) snot tools– mocking and calumny. Dang, this guy will never get over me for thoroughly rubbing his nose in his own fecal matter which he throws around in this forum every time he posts. How pathetic is that? What a chimp. Even Bonzo had more going for him. At least his cousins became astronauts.
Poor Chris. I guess he doesn’t have any self respect at all unless he props himself up with stupid attacks. You have to wonder what he does in his spare time. (I think I know but won’t say in mixed company.)
Dear Chris, all men have fears. It is how you deal with your fears that makes the difference. Ask a combat veteran. Maybe you will get a clue on what it means to be a man. Maybe not. (Probably not.)
If you were to look at the context of my statement instead of contemplating your posterior orifice 24/7 you might have gotten it right.
But that is not what you are about, is it Chris? You are about taking lame potshots at people — you don’t even know — with whom you find yourself at political odds.
So it goes. So goes the left. So goes with folks who think their college education in Marxist ideals is worth spit in the real world.
Yes, dear Chris, I do not fear you Occutards, even when you issue death or bomb threats.
In fact, I celebrate you! You are your own worst enemy. I love it! Bring it! There is nothing I like more than progressives being progressives.
The following nasty, full of filthy language summation about the Flea Party Occutards from comedian Adam Carolla is a good summation of what the Occupy Whatever, Dude movement is all about. (Dang, I wish he could say it without having to be bleeped.)
YOU HAVE BEEN FOREWARNED!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQpXybTnGVg
The Occupy Chico movement is entirely summed up by Occutard college radicals trying to Occutard Kendall Hall. At first I thought that this has to be Chris in the photo. If not, it is certainly one of his spiritual Occutard bretheren —
Warning: You Are Entering A Police State
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site135/2011/1206/20111206__02_news_06~1_GALLERY.jpg
Re Harold Ey’s: Pie, when the liberal mindset enters into the conversation, he cant help it if he takes one thing out of context,(you have a good list of things we all need to pay attention to)it is his Ideology to attack something he does not favor, therefore the reference to ‘fear’ is just his mind wondering why people like guns and confused because he doesn’t think anyone should have that freedom of choice, align this the need of LARGE government to control others and eventually this will be the downfall of his political party.
Precisely Mr. Ey. The “fear” comment from Chris was just the sort of moronic misrepresentation and presumptive convoluted thinking I have come to expect from people like him. They are a predictable as dung beetles.
I simply gave a list of some reasons why I think people are buying guns. They are buying them for recreation, self protection, and, as Juanita has pointed out, to supplement the table with some tasty wild game and have fun doing it.
I am not a hunter (yet), but I am a long time fan of fishing. Especially fly fishing. Hunting, as Juanita has described, is really about the whole process, from the woods to the table. I have always been a “whole process” sort of person and have great respect for hunters.
This year I purchased the first firearm I have ever owned. It is a revolver. Now I want a dozen more.
Why?
Because they are fun! Because they are wonderful, beautiful pieces of highly skilled machining art and craftsmanship. Because I have always wanted to see if I could learn to shoot and learn to do it well. Because I would like to try competitive shooting or experience a competitive shooting course. Because I have thought about developing this skill all my life and I finally got around to it. Because I would like to become proficient and get a concealed carry permit. And finally because, if I acquire the necessary skill and confidence, to go revolver hunting for wild boar.
Do I have fears about all of this? Yep. But overcoming my fear of the firearm and gaining confidence in handling it is part of the training process.
Re Quentin’s: “An idiot with a gun is even more dangerous than someone who is capable of rational thought.”
Isn’t that precisely why felons like you are not allowed to legally possess firearms?
Re Quentin’s Rant: But, when it comes right down to it, if the idiots who don’t want to listen are trying to kill us . . . . .
It is simply a matter of self defense. We must defend America from ALL enemies–ESPECIALLY the domestic ones!
Quentin, could you be a little less cryptic? I read this as follows:
People who won’t listen (to “us”) are idiots (Dittoheads) who are trying to kill “us”. They are enemies of America so “we” must defend against the enemy, especially domestic ones.
Is that a correct assessment of your position? Please be specific, you know how stupid I am.
Quentin, I think you one of the most astounding idiot blowhards on the planet and are extremely destructive, but I don’t want to kill you.
You are doing that all by yourself and I am having a gas watching you do it.
You will drop dead under your own wind. Heck, you have already committed political suicide, all that is left is for the coroner’s report to come in.
You headstone should read “The Player That Never Was”.
You know Pie I read that and got a whole other take on it. I think when occutard said “An idiot with a gun is even more dangerous than someone who is capable of rational thought.” I think one of the voices in his head was speaking from personal experience and warning us of what his other voices are going to do.
Harold Ey:
“therefore the reference to ‘fear’ is just his mind wondering why people like guns and confused because he doesn’t think anyone should have that freedom of choice,”
You should not make such unfounded assumptions. I go shooting sometimes with my dad. On Thanksgiving, we shot at a pumpkin at my grandma’s house in the country. I’m not a great shot, and know zip about guns, but it was still fun. I don’t have to wonder why people like guns, and I do think people should have the freedom to own them, within reason. Nowhere have I given any indication that any of the things you just said about me are true. So why did you say them?
Peggy: “Chris: Protect ourselves against whom?
“The millions of left-wing, socialist, progressives”
Seriously, Peggy? You believe that people need to buy guns to protect themselves against “millions” of liberals?
That is disgusting. That is hateful. And it is paranoid.
The same is true of Quentin’s “dittoheads” remark.
Are you two TRYING to provoke a civil war?
I don’t think I can continue commenting on a blog which finds this sort of rhetoric acceptable. It is not OK for someone to say that we need to buy guns to protect ourselves, and then when asked “against whom,” they answer, “Millions of members of the political party I oppose.” That is downright scary and evil, and it should not be allowed here.
Jack and Tina, do something about this.
Pie: “I simply gave a list of some reasons why I think people are buying guns. They are buying them for recreation, self protection, and, as Juanita has pointed out, to supplement the table with some tasty wild game and have fun doing it.”
All those are valid reasons to own a gun. Unfounded concerns over nonexistent “Occutard riots” is not a valid reason.
Your other comment is just overflowing with insults and ad hom attacks…”How pathetic is that? What a chimp. Even Bonzo had more going for him. At least his cousins became astronauts.
Poor Chris. I guess he doesn’t have any self respect at all unless he props himself up with stupid attacks. You have to wonder what he does in his spare time. (I think I know but won’t say in mixed company.)”
“Maybe you will get a clue on what it means to be a man. Maybe not. (Probably not.)
If you were to look at the context of my statement instead of contemplating your posterior orifice 24/7 you might have gotten it right.”
I do not speak to you in this way, Pie, and I never will. But then you have the nerve to accuse me of being “about taking lame potshots at people…with whom you find yourself at political odds?” Look in the mirror! That is all you do every time you respond to me.
All I said in my original comment was this:
“Well, Pie, I’m glad you don’t agree that a second American revolution is coming. But your fears over “riots” by Occupy Wall Street protesters are unfounded.”
Where is the “potshot” there? I said nothing even remotely insulting to you. You responded by calling me something that Jack and Tina felt was so bad it should be edited out (although it probably wasn’t as bad as Peggy and Quentin’s comments). How was that a proportionate response, Pie?
You constantly overreact to my comments. Why?
Chris: Im sorry you are having a hard time of understanding the meaning of, Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, but that is what Im talking about. We have the right to protect ourselves and to use a gun if necessary. A woman in Redding recently shot a man breaking into her home and she was not charged. That is what Im talking about.
If you need to blame someone for the way things are and how people feel you need to look for the cause and the creator of the current conditions. The cause is the liberal-mind set of sharing the wealth and entitlement teachings. If I failed to take care of myself and my family I wouldnt ever consider going to your home or place of business and demanding of you to give me some or half of all you have. I would feel responsible for my failings and would never think that you owed me anything.
Maybe its because we are a generation apart, I dont really understand how we can have such different thoughts. Im a product of parents who survived the Great Depression as kids and members of the Greatest Generation. . How about you? Did you ever have to go without shoes or food? Please dont tell me you support those with laptops and iPhones sitting on Wall Street demanding more from those sitting at desk two stories up. You have to be a smart young man, therefore, surely you can see the absurdity of what is going on. Think!! More important, think for yourself. Stop parroting what others are telling you.
If you dont like what is being said here on this blog you have every right to not visit it and find one that is more aligned with your thinking. That is your choice. As you gain years of experience you will come to realize not everyone is going to agree with you and no matter how many times you repeat yourself you will not change their minds. Learn to accept others and even consider the fact that lifes experiences have given them an insight you have not gained yet.
Im sure you are attempting to convert us to your way of thinking, but you are only convincing us to hold even firmer to our way of thinking, our beliefs and our hopes for a better America based on the rights of the individual and not massive government control. The choice is yours Chris. Its time to grow up and become a man and think like a man and put away childish ways that others will take care of you.
Peggy: “Im sorry you are having a hard time of understanding the meaning of, Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, but that is what Im talking about. We have the right to protect ourselves and to use a gun if necessary. A woman in Redding recently shot a man breaking into her home and she was not charged. That is what Im talking about.”
If that were all you were talking about, I of course couldn’t disagree with you. People have every right to defend themselves against robbers, and that includes using lethal force against people breaking into their homes. That is why I support individuals being allowed to own hand guns, and I don’t know any liberal who doesn’t agree with that basic principle (although we do favor certain regulations and restrictions that conservatives differ with).
But what you said earlier wasn’t that people need to get guns to defend themselves from robbers. You said that people need to get guns to protect themselves from millions of progressives.
Do you not see the difference there? Do you not see why a person would find the former perfectly reasonable, but the latter offensive and even dangerous?
Do you have any liberal friends, Peggy? I’m sure you do, and I can’t imagine you saying such a thing to any of them in person.
“Im a product of parents who survived the Great Depression as kids and members of the Greatest Generation.”
Then I am sure you are grateful for the economic stimulus known as the New Deal, which greatly helped combat the negative economic effects of the Great Depression. Most of Obama’s economic policies are drawn from that example. And the New Deal was also faced with the same accusations of creating an “entitlement” mentality of “sharing the wealth.” But it worked, and no legitimate historian or economist denies that fact.
To answer your question, no, I have never had to go without shoes or food. But I am living under the poverty line, and am currently paying all of the bills for myself, my mother, and my niece, because my mom was out of work for a while and she is now working two on-call jobs for the local school district. Hopefully she will move up to full-time status soon. Until then, I will remain the primary breadwinner for my family. I don’t have my own car right now, and probably won’t be able to save up for one for at least another year, which does create a significant hardship given that I go to college twenty miles away from my home. I have no idea when I will be able to get my own place, because the money I make from working at Wal-Mart is used to support my family. Luckily, I am getting financial aid for college, otherwise I wouldn’t be able to go. My family also recently went on food stamps out of necessity. We don’t want to use this program, and we will get off of it as soon as we can. But for now, it’s the only way to get by and still be able to pay our rent and our water and power bills.
So no, I don’t know what it’s like to struggle as much as people during the Great Depression struggled. But that doesn’t minimize the struggle that I and millions of other Americans are going through currently.
I don’t own an iPhone, although I do own a laptop, which is pretty much a necessity for a college education these days. But I fail to see how ownership of either of those two items makes one’s protest of Wall Street’s policies and their relationship to the government–yes, including President Obama–any less valid. Are you saying that if someone owns an iPhone, that means they can’t support raising taxes on the top 2% of earners who have seen their salaries go up while middle-class and lower-class Americans’ income has plummeted? That means they can’t support efforts to close tax loopholes for corporations? That doesn’t make sense, Peggy. Yes, I do support those who are protesting against Wall Street greed and government support for such greed, whether the protesters own fancy gadgets or not.
If we re-elect Obama and the democrats retain the Senate it will be seen as a mandate for progressive policy. Obama will use that power to more agressively pursue the “transformation” of America. When those policies result in even more debt, rampant inflation or deflation, less money flowing to government for services, and fewer job opportunities there could be, if not riots, groups or bands of desperate, undisciplined, amoral people looking for food, money, or anything they could trade for money…and yes, some could become violent. Common sense tells me that those who have the attitude that someone else “owes them” would be among the first to become desperate and aggressive. There will also be con artists traveling around the country. I wouldn’t want to live in some of our big cities/suburbs if it comes to that.
It wouldn’t look exactly like the great depression but will have the same essence.
Guns will be important for self protection.
Chris: “and no legitimate historian or economist denies that fact.”
I really wish you would stop this. There are plenty of legitimate historians that disagree with the effectiveness of the New Deal, not to mention the long term mess that has become the result of progressive thinking. Just because they don’t agree with your politics doesn’t mean they aren’t “legitimate”. That is the kind of opinion that invites criticism and derision….something you claim to want stopped.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3327
http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/69821-fdrs-secretary-of-the-treasury-says-new-deal-a-failure.html
See also here:
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/01/14/were-spending-more-than-ever-and-it-doesnt-work/
I think the reason progressives think the New Deal was wonderful is because they think more government is the answer to all problems. The new deal didn’t create an overall recovery. Unemployment remained high. What it did create is government social programs and a few projects.
Trouble is, if you keep growing government and taxing the private sector to pay for it “…sooner or later you run out of other people’s money!”
Are we there yet?
Obamas progressive policy is working exactly as he wants it to!!! Government is getting bigger. The biggest (progressive) bankers and (progressive) businesses are doing just fine. Big progressive green is collecting money for new projects and winning through stricter regs to force oil and coal out. Big union is being forced to make compromises, especially in the public sector, but they are being promised the second term will be better with government regs to force more union participation. the new healthcare law was written so that universal coverage will be easy to implement within a few years. The poor and newly unemployyed are being helped with increases to “helpful” government programs….increases to food stamps and meal programs, longer unemployment, etc. Meanwhile the majority of corporations and businesses, smaller banks and ordinary working stiffs are left out in the cold still waiting for stimulus to make a difference as promised. Economically, in terms of the entire nation, the progressive New Deal model does not work for everyone, certainly not for the majority of businesses and workers. It is a political plan not an economic plan. So when all those progressive historians sing its praises they are thinking in terms of politics only.
Which brings up a question. How can progressive claim to be socially caring or compassionate when their policy preferences divide the people and serve some while using others?
I see little right, the freedom, to pursue happiness in such a system.
Chris: Before answering you I decided to do a little reading about Roosevelt and the New Deal and found many similarities not only with him and Obama, but also found many of the same arguments amongst congress and economists as to just how helpful the New Deal was or did it actually hinder the recovery. No way to know, so lets move on. I did find the below statement of great interest. History does repeat itself, but we seem to once again refuse to learn from past mistakes.
Wikipedia.org
Roosevelt was initially in favor of balancing the budget, but he soon found himself running spending deficits in order to fund the numerous programs he created. Douglas, however, rejecting the distinction between a regular and emergency budget, resigned in 1934 and became an outspoken critic of the New Deal. Roosevelt strenuously opposed the Bonus Bill that would give World War I veterans a cash bonus. Finally, Congress passed it over his veto in 1936, and the Treasury distributed $1.5 billion in cash as bonus welfare benefits to 4 million veterans just before the 1936 election.[24]
New Dealers never accepted the Keynesian argument for government spending as a vehicle for recovery. Most economists of the era, along with Henry Morgenthau of the Treasury Department, rejected Keynesian solutions and favored balanced budgets.[25]
Now that we seem to have come to agreement that we do have the right to protect ourselves and what is ours let me see if I can explain what I was talking about concerning the differences to our sense of entitlement.
You are to be commended for working to support your family while going to school. I understand completely all you are going through. (Remember my saying in earlier posts I retired from working at a community college counseling department in the bay area after over 26 years. Ive worked with thousands of students just like you.) The road you are on right now is hard and made even harder because of the bad economic times we are in. But, hopefully, when all of this madness ends and our nation begins to grow and thrive again you will be able to reap some of the rewards you have worked so hard for and begin to enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Lets say in 10-15 years from now you are 40 years old. You have a wife, two kids, that dream car and a house in a nice area with good schools for your kids. And its all paid for with that dream job you worked so hard to get. Of course youre paying taxes and your tax bracket is 25% of your gross earnings. Youre making $100k a year so the feds are taking $25k out of your pocket to pay for programs you agree with, but some you dont. But, you have no choice and no say in how YOUR money is being spent. Doesnt seem right does it?
Now, your 50 years old and your kids are getting ready to go to college and get married. Oh yeah, there was that dream vacation you and your wife always wanted to take too. But, Calif. And the Feds have decided they need 30% of your gross salary now to pay for some new programs and existing ones that werent managed very well. The cost of running your government and providing all those free services and programs have increased so now you have to give them the money you had planned to take care of your family.
Are you getting the picture? Can you put yourself in my place and many others and understand why we feel the way we do? We all understand it cost to run our government just like it cost to have a family, a small business and even a very large business. With age you learn nothing is free someone has to pay. That free education we all received from K-12 we have been paying for through property taxes collected in rent and mortgage payments. FOR THE REST OF OUR LIVES.
Also, always remember business do NOT pay taxes. They collect them from the consumers of their product or service. All taxes are paid for by you and me. To keep the doors open on a business the cost of doing business is the cost of goods, and that includes taxes along with wages, benefits, administrative costs, etc. If the cost goes to high for the customer to afford the business closes. End of story and the beginning of more hard times for a few or many. Dont fall for the, That business had gross profits of $42 billion last year. Ask instead, What was their percentage of net proceeds? A 10% profit on $100k is a whole lot different from 1-2% profit of $42billion.
Getting the picture again Chris? So when Obama says he wants to tax the rich that are earning $250k a year I have to ask why. How did he decide that $250k was rich? If that family is in the highest tax bracket they are having over a third of their salary taken away and now they are going to have even more taken while millions pay absolutely nothing at all. To be fair shouldnt everyone pay something? Fair to me means everyone contributes something. I dont care if its just $5.00, at least they contributed too.
Youre young and have a long life ahead working for what you want out of life. I just hope you not only achieve your goals, but that you will be able to keep what YOU worked for. Good luck. I wish you well.
Re Chris’: “You constantly overreact to my comments.”
Bullshit. You constantly look for way to mock and misrepresent in order to insert a sneer and treat people you disagree with as if they were paranoid, fear driven idiots.
That is you. That is the left. That is what I and many others are fed up with.
Take your comments and stick them where the sun don’t shine, pal. As far as I am concerned you can drop dead.
If you are trying to get people to hate you Chris, TA DAH! You are well on your way.
By the way, here we have Chris playing his game again.
Why?
Does anyone besides me wonder why he posts here? Duh. To get attention he cannot get anywhere else.
Why?
Because folks face to face with a snotty brat tend to walk away. I would if I ever met him in person.
When Chris makes a comment, anyone who responds is subject to the next angle he looks to work. Ninety nine percent of his angles are just more caulumny and mockery. He thinks this passes as honest debate, but it is not.
The latest is a perfect example. If you respond honestly with some clarification, you are over reacting!
God, what a pathetic joke. Yes, Jack, it IS a mental disorder.
Jack and Tina, is there any way to filter out comments from a specific poster on this blog? I know I can always just avoid reading them, but it’s hard to resist sometimes. Yet every time I do read a response to me from a certain poster here, they are filled with nothing but ad hominem attacks and hateful abuse. No one else on this website, other than maybe Quentin, is as needlessly hateful and mean as this commenter. I have to say I am used to more moderated blogs than this one, but I’ve never had much of a problem with this place because the people have generally not behaved in the aggressively hostile way Pie Guevara does. I understand that we all have free speech, but you should understand that when commenters act this way it scares off other potential commenters who might not want to take that kind of abuse simply for disagreeing with someone. I’ve said nothing in this thread, or any other for that matter, to deserve this kind of treatment, and every time I speak up about it Pie Guevara just gets more and more angry and proceeds to blame me for his own anger issues.
Chris, there is no filter, we just have to do the snip thing. I hate that. It’s a waste of my time when I could be doing something more productive. I like Pie and I like you and wish you two guys could engage in a reasoned debate. You both bring up great points and help make this place more lively. Well I don’t know what to do. I just don’t know…feel free to post under another name if you think that would help?
ROFLMAO! Why don’t you go cry to mom and dad. Take your man bag and go home. Go wash the sand out of your lady parts and relax. I now have some respect for Libby, Libby is what he/she is but he/she never ever in all the years we have been here ever whined like a little b!@#$.
Toby, I believe in a civilized debate. I do not go into a blog discussion expecting to be verbally attacked, and if I am attacked repeatedly by the same poster for no reason, then yes, I will take my concerns to the moderators. If that makes me somehow less of a man in your estimation (because of course, a man being perceived as feminine in any way is just the worst! thing! ever!) then that’s your own sexist opinion and you’re entitled to it, but don’t expect it to affect me. I’m not going to take that kind of treatment from anyone, but neither am I going to resort to the same uncivilized and childish tactics as the people attacking me.
Jack:
“I like Pie and I like you and wish you two guys could engage in a reasoned debate.”
I wish that too. The thing is, I’ve tried. Pie hasn’t. I’ve asked him more than once what I could possibly do that would make him want to treat me with more respect, and each time he’s only responded with more sneering. It is impossible for the two of us to engage in a reasoned debate as long as he thinks I am beneath him.
“I just don’t know…feel free to post under another name if you think that would help?”
I really don’t think I should have to do that. And even if I did, it wouldn’t help; I’ve seen him act the same way to other liberal posters, such as Joe Shaw. He attacked Joe unprovoked as well, and now Joe doesn’t seem to post here any more because of those attacks.
Pie’s lack of civility is the problem, and the onus of responsibility is on him to fix it. I’ve done all I can, I’ve practically treated him with kid gloves, and I’ve gotten nothing but more flame comments for my efforts. If you want things to change, Jack, talk to him.
Peggy: “Lets say in 10-15 years from now you are 40 years old. You have a wife, two kids, that dream car and a house in a nice area with good schools for your kids. And its all paid for with that dream job you worked so hard to get. Of course youre paying taxes and your tax bracket is 25% of your gross earnings. Youre making $100k a year so the feds are taking $25k out of your pocket to pay for programs you agree with, but some you dont. But, you have no choice and no say in how YOUR money is being spent. Doesnt seem right does it?”
I do have a say. I have voting rights. We have taxation with representation in this country, do we not?
Of course some of my tax money will be going to programs I support, and some will be going to programs I do not. I may not like that fact, but what is the alternative? That is just a fact of life.
“Now, your 50 years old and your kids are getting ready to go to college and get married. Oh yeah, there was that dream vacation you and your wife always wanted to take too. But, Calif. And the Feds have decided they need 30% of your gross salary now to pay for some new programs and existing ones that werent managed very well. The cost of running your government and providing all those free services and programs have increased so now you have to give them the money you had planned to take care of your family.”
So you’re talking about a circumstance in which the American economy is in bad shape, right? That means that many Americans will be suffering much more than myself, with my $100,000 a year salary and my vacation plans? There will be (as there are now) millions of Americans for whom the very idea of a “dream vacation” is just that, a dream, and they are more concerned about putting food on the table and figuring out which bills they can put off v. which ones have to be paid now before their electricity gets shut off.
If the country is suffering that badly, then Americans of every bracket must make sacrifices. This was the ethos of the Greatest Generation; in WWII every American knew that they had to make sacrifices for their fellow Americans. Yet these days it seems that when we ask for much more moderate sacrifices, we are accused of promoting socialism. Under George Bush we received the first wartime tax cuts in U.S. history (and while taxes were cut for everyone, the cuts benefited the rich much more than the poor). Perhaps this is what has made some of us so spoiled?
If I ever find myself in the situation you describe, I will remember where I came from and I will gladly pay a few dollars more in taxes so that other less fortunate people can get access to the services they need.
“Getting the picture again Chris? So when Obama says he wants to tax the rich that are earning $250k a year I have to ask why. How did he decide that $250k was rich?”
This question strikes me as silly. Obviously, Obama did not just pull this number out of thin air; it has been a dividing line used for determining tax brackets for quite a long time, though I don’t know exactly when it started.
Also, only 2% of Americans make $250,000 a year. If you’re making more than 98% of the rest of the people in your country, you are rich by the standards of that country, plain and simple.
“If that family is in the highest tax bracket they are having over a third of their salary taken away and now they are going to have even more taken while millions pay absolutely nothing at all. To be fair shouldnt everyone pay something?”
You are making a false statement when you say that “millions pay absolutely nothing at all.” It is true that millions do not pay income tax, but they still pay sales and other taxes. So we are already all paying something.
“Youre young and have a long life ahead working for what you want out of life. I just hope you not only achieve your goals, but that you will be able to keep what YOU worked for. Good luck. I wish you well.”
Thank you, Peggy. I wish you well too.
However, I do have to ask that you apologize for your statement that you need to buy guns to protect yourselves from millions of progressives. As a progressive myself, can you see how such a statement might make me feel demonized and unsafe?
Chris: Protect ourselves against whom?
Peggy: The millions of left-wing, socialist, progressives ….
This doesn’t sound good. This sounds like what goes on in those younger democracies in Africa and Asia where when the fellas don’t like how the election turned out, they go get their guns.
You really mean that, Peggy?
Chris:
If the country is suffering that badly, then Americans of every bracket must make sacrifices. This was the ethos of the Greatest Generation; in WWII every American knew that they had to make sacrifices for their fellow Americans. Yet these days it seems that when we ask for much more moderate sacrifices, we are accused of promoting socialism.
The difference between then and now is people back then worked together for a common goal of winning the war. They knew our countrys very existence and their own depended on EVERYONE working together. Today we are fighting each other because we have a leader who will go down in history as, The Great Divider. We cant think differently or were bigots and racist. We cant want a better life for ourselves, children and grandchildren or were greedy. We cant expect those that CAN work to go get a job or were imposing our values and work ethics on them.
Obama, Pelosi, Reid and a whole bunch of other progressives from Washington DC to you and Libby have supported the OWS movement where there have been numerous rapes, attacks, stabbings, robberies, and even killings and you want ME to apologize for feeling threatened? They have also shut down the port of Oakland, destroyed small business all over and put people out of work and destroyed families abilities to provide for themselves.
One of Obamas biggest crony supports, SEIU even marched on a B of A administrators home while his 12 year old son was home alone. And you wonder why we feel threatened by this current progressive leadership?
The biggest difference between the Greatest Generation and now is we were attacked by a foreign country instead of from within. The Great Divider is pitting those that have against those that have not, and has driven us to the point of self destruction. He shut down oil drilling in the gulf, refused to open it again after court orders to do so, which lost tens of thousands of jobs. He gave Brazil $2 billion of our money to drill in the same gulf in even deeper water and said, Wed be their number one customer. Now hes threatening to veto the pipeline bill that will not only bring badly needed oil to the US but provide 20-30 thousands job too. The middle class is disappearing because this president and the rest of the progressive leaders seem hell-bent on eliminating this whole group of people by moving them to the poverty level and dependent on the government to survive.
When the well is dry and there is no more water, everyone goes thirsty. When the majority are out of work and broke no one is able to provide the funds needed to run this country. Here is a story from Yahoo News showing the result of Obamas decision to stop the US oil production. Remember he said that energy cost, Would necessarily go higher. Well they are going higher and people cant afford the higher cost, and with so many out of work no one can afford the higher taxes to pay for the assistance programs either.
Higher home heating oil prices and more families seeking aid due to the sour economy are straining resources. There’s a 10 percent surge in new applicants in Boston, Drew said.
“Our whole program could hit a rock soon,” said Mark Wolfe of the National Energy Assistance Directors’ Association.
Families can expect to pay, on average, about $3,300 to heat a home with oil this winter in New England, Wolfe said. That’s about $500 more than last winter. About half of the region’s homes use oil heat.
http://news.yahoo.com/northeast-states-cut-heating-aid-poor-100438979.html
However, I do have to ask that you apologize for your statement that you need to buy guns to protect yourselves from millions of progressives. As a progressive myself, can you see how such a statement might make me feel demonized and unsafe?
Are you kidding me? Let me see if I understand what you want. You want me to apologize for how I feel, even though my feelings are caused by the recorded and reported actions of the progressive, left-wing, democratic movement supported by Obama, Pelosi, Reid and most elected democrats. Grow up Chris, youre not a three year old any more who expects to get what he wants just because he said, Please. You dont get what you want just because YOU feel justified and entitled to it. If you feel demonized and unsafe, look into a mirror and ask yourself am I responsible for my actions? The answer is yes, yes you are.
Tell you what, Ill make you a deal. Ill apologize right after you do, for contributing to how I feel or hell freezes over, which ever comes first. Since I expect neither to happen in my lifetime dont hold your breath. You continue with your entitlement philosophy and Ill stay with my rights of, Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness, and well both see our country destroyed from within. May God help your generation and my grand-kids.
I can see my previous post and this one has been a complete waste of time. I thought I could use reason instead of attacks, as others do, to try and reach you, but until you grow out of this entitlement mentality I can see future attempts would also be fruitless.
Libby: Not going to waste my time in responding. Just read my response to Chris and apply it to yourself.
Wow…wow and double wow…Peggy you just knocked it out of the park, across the next lot and past the next intersection!
Thanks!
Peggy that was not a wasted effort on your part, that was AWSOME! If they gave awards for posts that would take top prize hands down.
Chris, I will have a civil dialog with you if you want? Awhile back you said Tina and I were okay,. but we’re on the wrong track politically. Thanks for the support about us being okay, but I meant to take exception to the rest of that at the time, but got a little sidetracked, sorry.
Chris do you think having gone through the “life experience” of living 40 years longer than you might give us some insights into life’s truisms that you are missing….hmmmm? I know, that sounds like a dodge and it’s not backed up with any examples, but really it is because everything we write is an example that is near and dear, and a lot of time we cite supportive data or we at least explain why we feel the way we do.
I forget the name of the Greek philosopher, but he said something to the effect that youth should not hold their opinions too tightly because as they age and gain wisdom those views fade. Anyone remember who said that? It is sooooo true!
Thanks Toby for your kind words.
I really do hope and pray Chris, Libby and the other progressives will realize what their future will be like if we continue on the path laid out by the current administration, and that they will some day support changes that will make America strong and fiscally sound again instead of another Greece.
May I add, “Bravo Peggy!”
And may I also give Jack my support about the Chris/Pie situation. I too like both of you and I too do not know what to do except to say the following which may, or may not, do any good:
Disagreement makes this blog interesting and fun!
Colorful language, as long as it is kept within reasonably bounds, also makes this blog both interesting and fun.
We come to this venture as adults. We are responsible for our own feelings. We are also responsible when we go to far and are under an ethical obligation as human beings to correct our own behaviors.
Personal evaluations of others can be interesting if done without the intent to harm. When we intend to harm the blog becomes a smelly goo…a place that is difficult and unpleasant to navigate and visit! A thatit is just plain boring. Anyone can string hurtful criticisms together…it takes a little more talent to evaluate or insult with honesty and grace meant to inspire growth.
We are fortunate to have this relatively safe place to express our opinions and thoughts; to nudge and challenge each other. I would like to ask that we all do our best to avoid being thoughtless. Think of Post Scripts as your home away from home, a place to play but also a place you care for, not a dumping ground.
Thank you in advance of your next post!
Peggy: “The difference between then and now is people back then worked together for a common goal of winning the war. They knew our countrys very existence and their own depended on EVERYONE working together.”
I’m not sure I’m grasping the relevant distinction here. Even if one concedes that the situation our nation and world is currently facing is not as bad as WWII, it is still quite bad, and it still requires all Americans to work together and make sacrifices.
“Today we are fighting each other because we have a leader who will go down in history as, The Great Divider.”
President Obama is the one asking us to come together and make sacrifices…it is the Republicans who refuse to do so. They have a “let them eat cake” philosophy, summed up by Herman Cain’s assertion that “if you don’t have a job, it’s your fault” and Newt Gingrich’s brilliant idea for poor schoolkids to serve as janitors to the rich kids. THAT is divisive. Why does that kind of rhetoric not offend you, but the president wanting to raise taxes on the top 2%–a policy which most Americans favor–does? Why do you call the latter class warfare, but not the former? The only answer I can figure out is that it’s only class warfare if the rich are being targeted. If the poor are being demeaned, it’s just business as usual.
It’s simply easier for some people to blame the powerless for their problems. The poor are an easy scapegoat.
“We cant think differently or were bigots and racist. We cant want a better life for ourselves, children and grandchildren or were greedy. We cant expect those that CAN work to go get a job or were imposing our values and work ethics on them.”
I think all of these conclusions are absurd and not based on anything President Obama or the Democratic Party has said or done.
You can of course disagree without being a bigot or racist…however, much of the disagreement from leaders of your movement has been expressed in bigoted ways. From birtherism to Limbaugh’s recent “uppity” slur against Michelle Obama, there are definite racist overtones in much of the anti-Obama rhetoric. That doesn’t mean everyone who disagrees or thinks differently is a racist; I have publicly disagreed with Obama on many issues here on this site, and I’ve never been afraid of being called a racist.
“We can’t want a better life for ourselves…or we are greedy?” Where are you getting this from? Everyone, no matter their political affiliation, wants a better life for themselves and their families. We simply disagree on how to do make that happen.
“We cant expect those that CAN work to go get a job or were imposing our values and work ethics on them.”
I’m not sure where you’re getting this from. Perhaps the reaction you’re seeing could be due to how you’re expressing yourself. If you believe that the jobless are simply lazy and not looking, as Herman Cain does, then you might do well to remember that there is an unemployment crisis going on. People who want to work aren’t finding jobs.
“Obama, Pelosi, Reid and a whole bunch of other progressives from Washington DC to you and Libby have supported the OWS movement where there have been numerous rapes, attacks, stabbings, robberies, and even killings and you want ME to apologize for feeling threatened?”
First, do you have any evidence that these crimes were committed by actual protesters?
Second, Occupy Wall Street organizers have spoken out loudly about these crimes and are dedicated to putting a stop to them.
Third, it strikes me as interesting that you left out the numerous crimes committed by police officers against the protesters. There are documented instances of police brutality against pregnant women, the elderly, and war veterans. The use of pepper spray by certain officers has violated both local ordinances and the constitutional rights of the victims. But you don’t find that worth mentioning, even though the police have a lot more power than any of these protesters. Why?
“They have also…destroyed small business all over and put people out of work and destroyed families abilities to provide for themselves.”
Evidence, please? You are blowing minor inconveniences way out of proportion.
“One of Obamas biggest crony supports, SEIU even marched on a B of A administrators home while his 12 year old son was home alone. And you wonder why we feel threatened by this current progressive leadership?”
I have heard of this incident, and I definitely do not think it was an acceptable tactic.
“He gave Brazil $2 billion of our money to drill in the same gulf in even deeper water and said, Wed be their number one customer.”
That’s a myth.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/braziloil.asp
“Now hes threatening to veto the pipeline bill that will not only bring badly needed oil to the US but provide 20-30 thousands job too.”
That’s a myth, too. That number is wildly inflated. The real number of jobs that would create is likely much smaller.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201112080014
And don’t get me started on the number of job-creating measures Republicans have opposed. Extending unemployment benefits and food stamps were ranked by the CBO as the top two measures most likely to stimulate the economy and create jobs. Lowering taxes on the rich is ranked very low. Republicans refuse to listen.
“The middle class is disappearing because this president and the rest of the progressive leaders seem hell-bent on eliminating this whole group of people by moving them to the poverty level and dependent on the government to survive.”
The middle class has been disappearing long before President Obama was even a presidential candidate. Where have you been?
“Are you kidding me? Let me see if I understand what you want. You want me to apologize for how I feel, even though my feelings are caused by the recorded and reported actions of the progressive, left-wing, democratic movement supported by Obama, Pelosi, Reid and most elected democrats.”
Your feelings are caused by your own paranoia. You are simply not likely to be attacked by someone motivated by “progressivism.” You have no reason to feel like that is likely. Sorry, but I’m not going to humor such an irrational mentality.
“You dont get what you want just because YOU feel justified and entitled to it. If you feel demonized and unsafe, look into a mirror and ask yourself am I responsible for my actions? The answer is yes, yes you are.”
I am certainly not responsible for your decision to say that you need to buy a gun to protect yourself from people like me. I have done nothing to deserve that.
“Tell you what, Ill make you a deal. Ill apologize right after you do, for contributing to how I feel or hell freezes over, which ever comes first.”
What am I supposed to be apologizing for?
“I can see my previous post and this one has been a complete waste of time. I thought I could use reason instead of attacks, as others do, to try and reach you, but until you grow out of this entitlement mentality I can see future attempts would also be fruitless. ”
Unfortunately, it was kind of a waste of time, Peggy, because you spent your entire post bringing up unrelated problems you have with the president and Occupy Wall Street and almost none of it responding to anything I actually wrote in my last comment.
Jack: “Chris do you think having gone through the “life experience” of living 40 years longer than you might give us some insights into life’s truisms that you are missing….hmmmm?”
Of course, Jack. But that doesn’t always translate to being on the right side of political issues. Think about when you were my age–you probably knew at least a few older men and women who had ideas which you felt were old-fashioned or backwards…and even now, as you are older and wiser, you still know that they were wrong about a great many things, especially on the topic of race.
Chris when I was your age I definitely felt some of the older people (my bosses) I was forced to for were not only wrong but were a-holes. I still feel that way them…they were! (Not all were, just the ones at this one place! lol )
Being older doesn’t mean being right, but it does give one a better shot at being right… would you agree? It’s all about perspective.
As a side note, I worked for GM and my bosses were the most ruthless corporate shills you could imagine. They felt they could treat employees disrespectfully just because they were big shots. One of the worst was our office manager, but he got his. They fired him just short of his retirement date so he couldn’t collect his full pension! And this was after 30 plus years of faithful, loyal service in GM management. He was a real jerk to the little guys and in the end he was treated as ruthlessly by his bosses as he treated us.
Jack: “One of the worst was our office manager, but he got his…”
A lesson for all of us…what comes around goes around. In the end we get away with nothing!
This is so true Tina! People talk about karma and for a long time I never believed in that stuff, but the older I got and the more justice I saw dealt to others I have come to think there is something to it. You can call it karma, cosmic forces or God at work, whatever….but these mean people who go out of their way to make others miserable always seem to get theirs.
Maybe it comes at a time when we have moved on and all but forgot them, but it happens eventually. Every rotten person in my life has come to a bad end or been brought down and humbled.
I sure don’t want that bad karma or whatever you want to call it! That’s why I try to play nice!!!! lol
Jack: “That’s why I try to play nice!!!!”
Isn’t the rest of that saying, “And carry a big gun”….or is it a “big stick.” LOL
Peggy, you’re right. The best we can do in life is have lots of friends and minimize our enemies, but if we got em (enemies) them they must either respect you or fear you. That applies to our foreign policy too.
Tina, thank you for those important words.
And Jack, just know that even though I think you are usually wrong on politics, I certainly don’t think you are a a-hole!
Chris, uh, er…well, it’s nice to know you don’t think I’m an a-hole… and let me say I don’t think you’re an a hole either. It’s nice not to be an a-hole.
“The difference between then and now is people back then worked together for a common goal of winning the war.”
Are you saying that, without an enemy, you can’t conceive of, or work toward, the common good? I think that’s what you’re saying.
Having lost the Commies, you’ve glommed onto the Muslims. Do you know how sad and silly and psychologically transparent all that “Obama is a Muslim”, “Birther” rubbish is? And it wasn’t even your idea. It was fed to you by powers that have been manipulating your prejudices to their profit and your exploitation for over a hundred years.
It is so effing sad. And, again, the Newtster is no more than you deserve.
“…the Newtster is no more than you deserve.”
The woman that helped to serve up the O man shouldn’t throw stones.
Sounds like you expect the clown to lose?
Libby: “Are you saying that, without an enemy, you can’t conceive of, or work toward, the common good? I think that’s what you’re saying.”
That’s what it sounded like to me too, Libby. Which is odd, because so often I’ve seen Tea Partiers claim that Islam is the greatest threat ever, and we must all be ever vigilant of this enemy of freedom. But whenever it’s pointed out that taxes were three times higher in WWII than they are now, I’ve seen the same people essentially say, “Well, that was because we were in a really big war,” as if everything is all roses and gumdrops in our country today.
Chris have you ever stopped to consider that if your side was so perfect and correct, then the state of California should be in tall cotton? The liberals control everything in the state…yet its broke, in debt and failing at every stage of government. You really must acknowledge this or you’re lost in a liberal fantasy world.
I can make no greater argument than to cite the examples of what has happened to this state since the liberals took over as our voter demographics changed. We’re a second rate state and we were once the very best. That’s a long fall from where we once were and your side did it.
Chris: “But whenever it’s pointed out that taxes were three times higher in WWII than they are now…”
It’s not very smart to compare the two periods. Consider the cost of WWII as opposed to any other war of recent years and you might begin to get why taxes were so high. You might consider too that Americans at home were still living with shortages and limits of all kinds.
I am opposed to raising taxes because an out of control Congress refuses to cut spending habits. They seem to come from the point of view that there’s a never ending supply of cash at their disposal. If they can’t take it from everyone they’re happy to take it from the wealthiest among us. The waste in government, if eliminated would raise as much as higher taxes from the wealthy.