by Jack Lee
“You never want to let a serious crisis go to waste” Rahm Emanuel, said while he was President Obama’s Chief of Staff.
Yesterday the Congressional Black Caucus (CBC) invited Trayvon’s parents to Washington for a hearing and a photo op. The National Daily News reported, “The parents of Florida teen Trayvon Martin were in Washington D.C. flanked by members of Congress.”
California’s iconic spokesperson, Rep. Maxine Waters (D-) used this press opportunity to deliver her unbiased, thoughtful and well reasoned opinion. “I, personally, really truly believe this is a hate crime.” This was said during a joint interview with CBC Chairman Rep. Emanuel Cleaver (D-Mo.) on CNN. Rep. Cleaver pushed back against the absurd accusations that some people (politicians and race-mongers) are exploiting Martin’s death for their own agendas. “The issue is the low esteem in which black life is held, particularly black males,” said Cleaver on CNN. Held in low esteem by whom Congressman, by the 94% of black killers who are also black? I’m pretty sure he didn’t mean them, but he should have. It’s far more relevant than the isolated case he was referring too.
The always prudent and always reserved, the famous Sheila Jackson Lee, Democrat Congresswoman from Texas weighed in with her proclamation: “There is no doubt that there was a failed investigation!” and “The importance of this is that the statement is made that this is an issue that will not go away.” Not to be topped, Congresswoman, Rep. Frederica Wilson-D of Florida provided her quasi eye witness testimony: “Trayvon was hunted down like a dog…”
According to a recent poll, 75% of American’s believe the shooter should be arrested and charged with something.
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PS It’s been reported in the news that Trayvon’s parents have filed for two trademarks regarding the use of his name. This is a highly unusual move as trademarks are generally used for commercial reasons to protect intellectual property rights. As one of our commenter’s (Chris) has noted their attorney said it was to prevent exploitation by someone trying to make a buck off his name. (see comments by Chris)
Jack, according to the family’s lawyer, the trademarks are not intended so that the family can profit off of Trayvon’s death–quite the opposite. They were filed in order to stop other people from profiting off of Trayvon’s death.
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/03/trayvon-martin-mother-trademarked-name-reason
Sybrina Fulton is seeking to trademark the phrases “Justice for Trayvon” and “I Am Trayvon.” The family attorney, Natalie Jackson, told RadarOnline.com exclusively: “I want to set the record straight, the trademarks were applied for so that no one can profit from or promote their own agendas using Trayvon Martin. Trayvon’s parents will never seek to financially profit from these trademarks, period. I can’t emphasize that point enough. They haven’t even been able to mourn his death because they are seeking justice for his death.
“Their son is dead and it’s insulting for people to think that they are thinking about profiting from this horrific tragedy. It’s sad that there are those out there that are attempting to make money off of Trayvon’s death and that his parents had to do this.”
http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martins-parents-fight-trademark-accusations-details
“The family is NOT attempting to profit from Trayvon Martin’s death. A trademark registration is necessary to issue cease and desist letters for those exploiting Trayvon Martin’s name.
The family is grateful for the outpouring of support and attention drawn to this injustice. A trademark filing is the first step in weeding out those using Trayvon’s name in bad faith.
The family is also setting up a foundation that will assist other families in their fight for justice.”
Thank you Chris, it’s fair to have that said. Time will tell if its true or not, but its fair to say it. This is why I said trademarks are usually done for commercial purposes. It could be something else I suppose, however it is a highly unusual move and I hope that much we can agree on. When we get into a person’s state of mind…who really knows, right?
“The family is also setting up a foundation that will assist other families in their fight for justice.”
Chris, I too can support any foundation in the pursuit of justice, as long as it is without race discrimination.
I’m glad to hear the family is attempting to protect Trayvons name and legacy from those who would profit from the use of his name and the terrible circumstances of his death. The elements attempting to profit, either financially or politically, are proving themselves to be thugs and race baiters so far. They should receive nothing but contempt from the public.
Another Lee, film maker Spike Lee, tweeted an address of an elderly couple whose last name is Zimmerman and who are no relation to Neighborhood Watchman George Zimmerman. Thousands of his Twitter followers re-tweeted that erroneous address. This couple is now in hiding after a deluge of death threats.
Will Spike Lee apologize? Of course not, he is not man enough. It takes a real man to apologize for doing wrong. Black racists and race-baiters are out in force and cashing in on Trayvon Martin’s death and Spike Lee is but one of hundreds of prominent people fanning the flames.
Will President Obama do the right thing and step up to douse the fire? Will he speak out against violence and violent rhetoric? I don’t think so. I don’t think he is man enough. It takes a real man to stand up against the mob and mob violence. Especially a mob of people with whom he shares a particular skin tone.
I also strongly suspect Obama and his team of political advisers think he benefits politically from this angry and violent race rhetoric, which is why he injected himself into it in the first place.
We will see. Meanwhile, cashing in on Trayvon Martin’s death is ruling the day.
As if this shooting of a teenager isn’t enough for parents to worry about, today all Chico high schools were on lockdown because of a gun threat. Chico High kids had to sit on lockdown for three hours. They were starving and parents were scared. We got an electronic phone call and if we checked the website we saw a link to the district. Our kids didn’t even know what was going on.
It is terrifying to think of an unhinged teenager out there with a gun, we don’t need to encourage more people to kill others when they are supposed to be protecting the neighborhood.
Princess said: “we don’t need to encourage more people to kill others when they are supposed to be protecting the neighborhood. ”
I can see you’re upset Princess and I’m trying to understand what you’re saying. Who is it that is being encouraged to kill? Could you tell us what’s happened?
Anyone out here know anything about the lockdown at the high school and whats up?
Thanks, Jack
The Stand Your Ground law in Florida encourages people to shoot to kill.
Also, here is a link to ABC news footage that they claim shows Zimmerman does not have injuries (I can’t really tell myself)
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3OrxNlTySo
Princess and other readers:
The law says, if you’re otherwise behaving legally, and you have a reasonable and imminent fear that you or another will subjected to great bodily harm or death by an aggressor who has made an overt move to carry out his attack, then you then have all the legal right in the world to use lethal force to defend yourself. But, once that threat has subsided and is no longer a threat you must cease your defense immediately.
The test elements here are (1) reasonable fear and (2) imminent danger. And (3) your defense can only last as long as the threat.
You need not be in flight (running away). You need not yell stop or I will shoot – Said another way, you need not wait until you are physically under attack. You especially need not wait until your nose or arm or some other body is broken or you head is being slammed into the concrete by your attacker. And even if you are disobeying the suggestion of an unsworn police dispatcher before the aggression happens, you’re not automatically presumed to be in the wrong.
It get’s less clear if you are doing something that would provoke anger in a prudent person and then you’re attacked. Then you would have to look at the whole circumstance and each case is unique.
I’ve heard people are angry and feel Zimmerman should have run away (he says he was walking away). Does he have a duty to run away from danger? Not by any law I know of, including this stand your ground law.
Next. Let’s say you’re a teenager walking home alone and some older, fat guy is following you from a fair distance. You think he is armed, would you (A) Run away as fast as you can, because he’s fat and you’re fast? (B) Turn and attack and try to subdue him? (C) Do nothing and continue on your way home? (D) Call the police from your cell phone and continue to avoid the subject?
What would be the dumbest thing to do?
Now this from the State of Florida, handgun licensing…
Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?
A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:
Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.
Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.
Q. What if someone uses threatening language to me so that I am afraid for my life or safety?
A. Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force. There must be an overt act by the person which indicates that he immediately intends to carry out the threat. The person threatened must reasonably believe that he will be killed or suffer serious bodily harm if he does not immediately take the life of his adversary.
FROM THE STATE OF FLORIDA: JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
776.012Use of force in defense of person.A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the others imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1)He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2)Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
History.s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.
776.013Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.(1)A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a)The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that persons will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b)The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2)The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a)The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b)The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c)The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d)The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3)A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4)A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a persons dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5)As used in this section, the term:
(a)Dwelling means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b)Residence means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c)Vehicle means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
Some American jurisdictions require that a person retreat from an attack, and allow the use of deadly force in self defense only when retreat is not possible or when retreat poses a danger to the person under attack. The duty to retreat is not universal, 23 states do not require retreat. However, police officers are not required to retreat when acting in the line of duty. Similarly, some courts have found no duty to retreat exists when a victim is assaulted in a place where the victim has a right to be, such as within one’s own home.[1]. The Model Penal Code [2] suggests statutory language that also recognizes an exception to the usual duty to retreat when the victim of the attack is in his or her own dwelling or place of work. It is common to exempt a person’s home or car from the duty to retreat, which is known as the castle doctrine.
Jack, I do not ordinarily concern myself in matters such as this “tragedy.” Let me first say the real tragedy is the overwhelming amount of media coverage being giving to a very common incident which plays out somewhere in America each week. Where is all the media attention for the 29 people killed in Chicago 2 weeks ago during a 24 hr. period? Most of them were Black.
I find it extremely frustrating when Black America turns things into a racial issue. It’s not about race. It’s about an untrained, poorly skilled “Hispanic” individual out playing rent a cop. Mr. Zimmerman placed himself in harms way allegedly for the better of his neighborhood acting as a watchman. He observed what he thought was suspicious activity on the part of Mr. Martin. Unfortunately, Zimmerman made some poor decisions which ultimately lead to the confrontation between him and Martin. Which in turn lead to the now infamous physical altercation and the shooting death of Martin. Based on my experience in over 20 year of law enforcement people tend to get angry and often try to turn a situation into something that it’s not. Such as this case.
This is what we know: We know Zimmerman was out on patrol looking for criminal activity, such as burglary. We know that somehow the two confronted one another. We also know previous to this that Zimmerman called the police to report the suspicious activity of Martin.
We also know from eye witness accounts and Zimmerman’s statement to police that Zimmerman and Martin fought, Martin was on top and Zimmerman was on the bottom.
Whether Martin started the fight by battering Zimmerman or whether Zimmerman started may not be not material.
The question now is, did Zimmerman have an immediate and sustained fear for his life when he shot Martin?
That’s the million dollar question we would like to know. It’s the key element must be established if police will have a justified homicide or if they should arrest and prosecute Zimmerman for murder.
We know Zimmerman was beaten by Martin. Witnesses support this. Did Zimmerman at that moment in time feel his life was in jeopardy? Would you?
Eyewitnesses say they heard Zimmerman screaming for help in a manner that one could conclude was from a high state of anxiety and fear. Witnesses also say they saw Martin battering Zimmerman repeatedly.
Some of the factors police must take into account when investigating a case such as this is size of the two combatants. We do know Zimmerman was much bigger (fatter) than Martin, but that doesn’t always mean more powerful or in shape.
In trying to establish justification for shooting the law considers the physical condition of the shooter at the time and the attacker’s. An example is, police would be justified in using lethal force in the event they were becoming physically incapacitated (worn down) during a struggle such as this one, ie; getting weak and no longer able to defend themselves. Did Zimmerman believe at that time he could no longer defend himself in a non-lethal manner and did he believe Martin’s continued aggression would result in further significant injury or death? How do you prove this? You prove by facts like physcial evidence at the scene, statements of eye witnesses and other witnesses who said they heard Zimmerman crying out and recognized his voice.
When you clear your mind of all the crap being thrown out by the media and black America you might see the real picture.
I see an overly zealous Zimmerman observing what he believes i suspicious activity. Well, what’s suspicious activity? It can be a man dressed in trench in 100 heat standing in front of bank. It can be a man walking in a parking lot shining a light into the windows of cars. It can also be any person standing in one place for a given period of time seemingly watching the activity of others.
The easiest way to answer this is what would a “reasonable person” believe, given the circumstances, the hour, location, etc. This probably still sounds pretty vague, right?
Profiling or just being over zealous notwithstanding, you have to acknowledge that Zimmerman did call police and reported something he strongly felt was suspicious. Unfortunately, I think Zimmerman used poor judgement when he confront Martin, if he did in fact confront him.
He should have stayed his distance and continued to observe the best he could until police arrived and then give them his statement, if need be. But he didn’t do that. This doesn’t mean Martin had to fight with Zimmerman either. Martin could have chose a different option.
If Martin truly attacked Zimmerman than one must ask the simple question, “why?” If the answer is yes he did attack Zimmerman, you may reasonably conclude there was probably criminal activity afoot and Martin was attempting to conceal his actions and/or escape before Zimmerman could report him to police.
You must remember people do not think rationally when they are about to commit a crime or are committing a crime, especially minors.
Martin in a split second reacted and he did the only thing that came to him that seemed reasonable under the circumstances. That was to hit Zimmerman, knock him down, get on top and start beating him and then possibly escape. However, Zimmerman fought back. Martin obviously got better of Zimmerman from the first punch and Zimmerman, being untrained in police or military street survival techniques, chose to use his firearm. Maybe initially to scare Martin to stop the assault or to disable him. Another question police ask in cases like this is, how many rounds were fired and how far apart were those rounds discharged? This goes to show premeditation or an impulsive reaction. This shows intent or the state of mind at that moment. Again, was Zimmerman defending himself or trying to willfully and wantonly kill someone in anger?
The number of shots fired is crucial here in establishing his likely intent or for that matter unintentional or accidental discharge of that weapon. In this case I believe there were 2 shots fired a few seconds apart leaving police to conclude there was a struggle over the gun when you match this to the eye witness account.
Did Zimmerman feel at that millisecond in time that he was in grave danger or serious injury? Remember, he’s not a lawyer or police officer, he’s a private person in a horrible situation. What would an untrained, yet reasonable, person do in that same situation?
What would you do if you had a gun and someone was beating you? Would pause to look-up the laws regarding justified homicide or would you shoot to defend yourself? There is an old saying in the police world for situations just like this. “It’s better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.” All I can say is the police are investigating the shooting and justice will be done in the end.
In the meanwhile I wish the President and other Black politicians would keep their 2 cents out of a local matter and get back to their jobs. Would Black America being doing this if Martin had of killed Zimmerman? Would Black America be calling for justice if Martin was White? I think it’s wrong that Black America is quick to support their “brown brothers” (Hispanics) when it’s convenient, but in times like this that all goes out the window.
Remember what I said at the beginning, deaths by shooting or stabbing happen everyday. Why is this case so special? It’s not unique at all. T he names and faces may change, but the circumstances have happened many times before and will continue to happen in the future. I bet at this very moment someone has just lost their life somewhere in America. If all you folks calling for justice are sincere than I want to hear your cries for justice for every victim of any race. America, it’s not the 19th Century or 1950’s in the South. We have assimilated every ethnic group on earth into this country. Minorities hold positions of power, wealth and respect here. I’m sick of the race excuse always being played when someone disagrees with how something was handled by the police.
Jack: “I’ve heard people are angry and feel Zimmerman should have run away (he says he was walking away). Does he have a duty to run away from danger? Not by any law I know of, including this stand your ground law.”
“Run away?” No, he doesn’t have the duty to run away. But he does have the duty to know better than to RUN INTO a situation that he knows he is not supposed to be in, due to his neighborhood watch training, the police dispatcher’s recommendation, and plain common sense. He followed Martin; he got out of his car; he took a gun with him. Clearly this was bad decision-making the whole way through, to the point of criminal negligence.
“Next. Let’s say you’re a teenager walking home alone and some older, fat guy is following you from a fair distance. You think he is armed, would you (A) Run away as fast as you can, because he’s fat and you’re fast? (B) Turn and attack and try to subdue him? (C) Do nothing and continue on your way home? (D) Call the police from your cell phone and continue to avoid the subject?
What would be the dumbest thing to do?”
‘I don’t know, I’m a teenager. There’s a fairly good chance I am going to do the dumbest thing possible.’
And you’re still ignoring the dumb actions of Zimmerman. He went into this situation apparently knowing that he could be attacked–otherwise he wouldn’t have taken his gun. Following someone who you think could pose a threat to your life over a vague suspicion that they’re in the wrong neighborhood sounds like a pretty dumb thing to do in my opinion. He should have let the police handle it, like he is trained to do.
I don’t think I’ve seen you take issue with the stupidity of Zimmerman’s actions yet. You seem to be imposing a higher standard of reasoning ability on Martin, a teenager, than to Zimmerman, an adult.
And again, just for the record, we don’t yet know for certain that Martin did attack Zimmerman.
“And again, just for the record, we don’t yet know for certain that Martin did attack Zimmerman.”
Chris if this is your standard fine, then let’s be fair all the way and say we don’t know anything about this case for sure. We don’t know if the eye witness was telling the truth, we don’t know anything about the evidence for sure, about the police actions, etc., we know nothing for certain, so lets just leave it there and let the investigation continue and see what happens?
Princess I can’t see any damage to Zimmerman either but the story at your link indicates he arrived at the station after being taken to the hospital so I’m sure he would have been cleaned up and patched up if necessary before being turned back over to police. The video does show he was cooperating with police and that they did take him in for questioning in handcuffs.
I’m not sure about bruising or swelling; sometimes bruising doesn’t get really nasty until a few hours have passed.
Jack: “Verbal threats are not enough to justify the use of deadly force.
What if verbal threats are made while someone is beating on you? That would certainly make one feel more threatened but would it justify the use of a gun?
http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/in_our_opinion/florida-self-defense-law.htm
I agree with the basic premise of the law. I think self-defense is a basic right every American should have but the law may have been written poorly and tied the hands of the police. I hope that doesn’t lead to a straw trial created solely to appease. Whether Zimmerman is guilty or innocent he at least deserves a fair trial and not one drummed up by excessive protest or threats.
Since there were no witnesses close enough to see or hear what happened or what may have been said between them just prior to the shooting Zimmerman’s account to police is what has to be dispproved by evidence or testimony in order to arrest him. At least it would seem so according to this summary of the law.
The thing that this case hangs on is whether Zimmerman feared for his life…I can see where he might have if indeed his head was being slammed into the pavement.
This is a very tough case. Zimmerman should either be held for trial or the full evidence should be released with a complete explanation as to the decision not to prosecute.
Only time will tell who makes how much money from the exploitation.
“And is just keeps growing ….”
In your frightened mind.
What is is now? Five posts on the subject, and all manner of other interesting things going on too.
What is so terrifying?
Re: “I don’t think I’ve seen you take issue with the stupidity of Zimmerman’s actions yet.”
Un-freaking-believable! As if this person, or Jack, or anyone could know for certainty or come to the baldly presumptive conclusion that Zimmerman’s actions were, in fact, stupid. Why on earth should Jack take “issue”? Do you really think he is biased as you?
What sort of mindless, bigoted, presumptive, prejudicial thinking does it take to even make that sort of base, asinine, and appalling statement?
People who visit this site and spew such egregious crap make me want to vomit. This is what passes for thoughtful reflection these days? What despicable nonsense. Nonsense I have come to expect from this ugly and horrid person.
Just when I thought this person could not possibly be more disgusting, he pulls this rank and abominable tripe.
Robert Ricks your account of what is possible in this case is really appreciated given your background. Thank you for your service in whatever community you serve(d).
I also really like hearing this:
“America, it’s not the 19th Century or 1950’s in the South. We have assimilated every ethnic group on earth into this country. Minorities hold positions of power, wealth and respect here. I’m sick of the race excuse always being played when someone disagrees with how something was handled by the police.”
I couldn’t agree more. I would only add that I wish black Americans could experience assimilation and acceptance.
I don’t like crimianl activity, gang activity, rudeness, thuggery, or prejudice in people of any race or creed. I think most people do. In America, as you say, we do have an excellent record of assimilation, acceptance and celebration of differences. It is ruined by attitudes that assume prejudice in every event as a means of feeding their own anger or making profit.
Chris: “I don’t think I’ve seen you take issue with the stupidity of Zimmerman’s actions yet. You seem to be imposing a higher standard of reasoning ability on Martin, a teenager, than to Zimmerman, an adult.”
Jack has been quite reasonable about both people involved. Much of what he has written has been to update the story with newly disclosed information on the case and the incredibley bad response of activist elements. His remarks, like mine, are often in response to one-sided opinions and statements that do not follow according to reported facts
You have been a zealot for Martin but I don’t recall you condemning the many possible felonies committed with impunity by the NBP (and perhaps Spike Lee). If I’m wrong about that I apologize. There are people in the streets threatening violence to Zimmerman and the news accounts have been, especially at first pretty harsh toward Zimmerman. Also Jack is an ex police officer. Is it really surprising that he would explain or assert the opposing possibility, an alternate explanation or two?
We discuss things here in comments that are posted at times hours later and at times after several other comments have been made. It’s not like having a face to face discussion…lighten up, please, your accusation against Jack seems a little unfair IMHO.
.
Pie, I realize you can’t help the Pavlovian response to anger you have upon seeing my name on this site, but that last comment was over the top even for you. For instance, you used sixteen different negative adjectives to describe me in only ten sentences. I guess I should appreciate the effort you put into these responses!
But I described very clearly and rationally why I think Zimmerman’s choices in this case were stupid. I explained that Zimmerman didn’t listen to the police dispatcher, he ignored neighborhood watch rules by following Martin and carrying a weapon with him, he got out of his car…these are all facts that we know occurred. It is hardly “bigoted,” or any of the other creative terms you used to describe me, to say that these actions were stupid. If you disagree that these actions are stupid, then explain why. Actually present an argument, and not just the usual ad hominem I’ve come to know and love you for.
Tina:
“His remarks, like mine, are often in response to one-sided opinions and statements that do not follow according to reported facts.”
I understand this. Pushing against information you believe to be unfair or wrong is a noble goal, and it also takes a lot of time that could be spent on addressing other aspects of an issue. It also often leads to “side-taking,” even if that’s unintended. I’ve been there myself, so I get what you’re saying here.
“I don’t recall you condemning the many possible felonies committed with impunity by the NBP (and perhaps Spike Lee). If I’m wrong about that I apologize.”
You are wrong; I’ve condemned them several times in comments here. But there’s no need to apologize; with six or seven different articles about this case, it is hard to keep up with all of them.
That said, I don’t think asking you and Jack to acknowledge the stupidity of Zimmerman’s actions is all that similar to you asking me to condemn the Black Panthers and Spike Lee. Those people are only tangential to the case itself. Their actions are wrong but they don’t change the facts of what happened between Zimmerman and Martin. Zimmerman’s actions, however, are directly relevant to figuring out what happened on that night, just as Martin’s actions are. I don’t think it’s unreasonable for me to wonder why Jack has focused on the stupidity of Martin’s actions, and hasn’t really said much about the stupidity of the actions taken by Zimmerman, who is the adult in this case and the only one still alive.
“Also Jack is an ex police officer. Is it really surprising that he would explain or assert the opposing possibility, an alternate explanation or two?”
Yes, I understand that, but I have said that even within this alternate explanation–which is looking more likely to be the actual explanation of what really happened–Zimmerman still comes off looking like he acted stupidly and irresponsibly. I’d just like to see you guys consider that. Jack wrote about the wisdom of Martin’s choices, but not much about the wisdom of Zimmerman’s, and I think we need to consider both.
“lighten up, please, your accusation against Jack seems a little unfair IMHO.”
I’m not sure that what I said here even rises to the level of an “accusation.” It was just an observation. And I think it was fair.
I hear a video of the shooter at the police station has been released and it does not show a beat up guy. If this is real I would say someone has some splainin to do.
Chris: “I don’t think asking you and Jack to acknowledge the stupidity of Zimmerman’s actions is all that similar to you asking me to condemn the Black Panthers and Spike Lee.”
I have acknowledged that it was not wise of Zimmerman to follow Martin or to take his gun, however, since I don’t stand in his shoes I can’t condemn his action as stupid. I don’t know the neighborhood, I do’t know how menacing the tall figure appeared and I don’t know that Zimmerman even intended to confront martin. As far as I know his only intention was to see where he was going and report his location to police. Perhaps he thought he would help thm capture the burglers involved in previous breakins.
I think most of your conclusions are based on information after the fact and as a result you have little interest in exploring alternative possibilities. Exploring the possibilities is all I’ve been doing. We have the information that has been made public but we don’t have what hasn’t been disclosed and we don’t have the benefit of witnessing what happened. We are speculatinjg as an exercize and that is all.
“Those people are only tangential to the case itself. Their actions are wrong but they don’t change the facts of what happened between Zimmerman and Martin.”
Not necessarily true. This case is a month old. Why the outrage now? Has the outrage been orchestrated? Is it designed for political advantage? Is it designed to frighten people into silence (right bloggers or certain reporters for instance)? I’m sorry but I’ve seen this type of “protest” long enough to know it is community organized through political channels for a pyurpose.
“I don’t think it’s unreasonable for me to wonder why Jack has focused on the stupidity of Martin’s actions, and hasn’t really said much about the stupidity of the actions taken by Zimmerman, who is the adult in this case and the only one still alive.”
Why not? The initial reporting was biased and lacking in information. I think it was necessary to bring balance to the story and ask questions. Then the comments were heavily weighted against Zimmerman and the police without sufficient evidence and based mostly on emotion and/or resentment. You ahve to admit the term child doesn’t really describe Martin and calling Zimmerman white was totally biased in order to create outrage. Both Jack and I were deeply offended by an obvious intent to create outrage and railroad the Mr. Zimmerman…and later how this may have been a matter of using him as a pawn in a politically driven scheme.
You think we need to “consider the wisdom of both” now but intitially you were all in for Martin. Hey…we are just having a discussion here. All points of view have been given the same opportunity for exposure and none of it means anything in the bigger picture anyway. We don’t have the authority to do anything about it and expressing all opinions and thoughts might just help to educate. I don’t know why you feel you must monitor the situation and keep track of who says what…I really don’t.
Re: “Pie, I realize you can’t help the Pavlovian response to anger you have upon seeing my name on this site, but that last comment was over the top even for you.”
You have the temerity to judge me “Pavlovian” after you wrote “I don’t think I’ve seen you take issue with the stupidity of Zimmerman’s actions yet.”
Too funny. Thanks for the laugh, bud! You have absolutely no capacity for self reflection.
“The unexamined life is not worth living.” — Socrates
“The trouble ain’t that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain’t distributed right.” Mark Twain
Re Toby’s: “I hear a video of the shooter at the police station has been released and it does not show a beat up guy. If this is real I would say someone has some splainin to do.”
I agree. I have seen it. Not a mark.
Tina: “I have acknowledged that it was not wise of Zimmerman to follow Martin or to take his gun, however, since I don’t stand in his shoes I can’t condemn his action as stupid.”
Fair enough, Tina.
“Not necessarily true. This case is a month old. Why the outrage now?”
I think you somewhat answered your own question here. Part of the reason people are so outraged is because this happened a month ago and Zimmerman still has not been charged with anything. Also, some stories take a while to gain steam, especially when not many facts are known about it. We are still learning new information. Would it have been better if the protests started the day after the shooting, when even less was known for certain about what transpired? Of course not. I’m not seeing anything sinister here.
Pie Guevara, let the record show that I asked you to give me an actual argument for why you thought I was wrong, instead of relying on ad hominem. You then decided to reply with no argument and more ad hominem. That’s fine with me, I’m just glad that we were able to make each other laugh today.
Jack, Tina and ALL P.S. Readers,
One thing that still has me puzzled and I mentioned it in my first address to this incident. What in the heck is sooooo special about this case? Like I said, it’s not unique, it’s not the first time this sort of thing has happened (won’t be the last) and where is the out pouring of solidarity and community support for the countless victims of violent crimes perpetrated every day in America?
I’ll ask the question again. What if Martin was white and what if Zimmerman was white? Would Bobby Rush be donning a hoodie in Congress for him then? What if the dead person was named Tony Giannini or Bradly Smith? I’ll even go one better. What if the deceased were named Cho Vu? Would Obama be putting in his 2 cents? The answer to all the above is NO and NO and NO!
Do I think Zimmerman was zealous at his voluntary job? 100% YES! Do I think he used poor judgement when he chose to exit his vehicle and approach Martin foot? Affirm, I do! Does this lead us to premeditated murder? NO.
Zimmerman was foolish and overly confident to a point. He realized he was in trouble and began to walk back to his vehicle but it was too late. The damage may have already been done. This may have poured gas on the fire.
Why would a seemingly harmless minor just going about his business turn violently aggressive against an older much larger male? That’s a question the police investigation will answer one way or another.
What sickens me though is in this alligator tears pursuit of justice we know have the Feds involved in a local matter. Where is the justice for all the other victims of homicide, rape, robbery and burglary? I don’t see the Feds coming out to investigate those crimes.
It’s shameful people jump on the band wagon when it’s convenient. The definition of integrity is doing what’s right even when no one else is looking.
Now don’t get me wrong here. If Martin is truly a victim of homicide, then I fully support and extend my empathy to the grieving family. But one thing remains and that is “we” don’t know what happened yet. We just don’t know if Martin attacked Zimmerman and beat him as alleged forcing a seemingly more larger adult male to use deadly force against a smaller sized minor. So, I think it’s premature for Black America, our elected officials and other supporters to have rendered a decision of guilt against Zimmerman. After all, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?
I hope you all are right and Zimmerman acted recklessly and without due regard. I hope for all of you he did. Because if it turns out law enforcement concludes Zimmerman acted appropriately and Martin was the aggressor I expect each and everyone of you, including President Obama, to voice your sincere apologies for jumping the gun and being so quick to judge because this young man was Black.
Not likely, right? I turn blue and pass out before the eating crow comes my way.
How about we just stop and wait to see what the OFFICIAL investigation shows instead of Monday morning quarterbacking everything. After all, I don’t know, you don’t know and the Honorable Bobby Rush doesn’t know what happened.
One last comment to address the video everyone is saying is proof Zimmerman and the police are lying? First, what vested interested would the Sanford P.D. have in covering up for Zimmerman? Second, the exact timeline between the incident and the video isn’t known yet. Moreover, video doesn’t show everything. Unless Zimmerman was the elephant man you would not be able see most abrasions, subdural swelling or minor to moderate trauma to the head. Or for that matter spots of blood even on a white shirt. Which by the way Zimmerman is wearing dark clothing. In addition, we do know Zimmerman was treated by either the police or medical personnel at the scene. He sat in a squad car for almost 3 hours. I can’t tell you how many times I administered First Aid or otherwise cleaned the wounds of injured parties after a fight occurred. We are all humans and we have regard for our fellow man, do we not? I didn’t have to wipe the blood off a crook who fell down and cut himself while I was chasing him on foot, but I did out of respect. That’s the kind of cop I was. I understood the game between cops and bad guys and I understood our roles. “They run and I chase.” I never took it personally like some people do. That’s when you have a bad cop.
All I am trying to say is don’t believe the absence of obvious signs of injury in that video is evidence the police and Zimmerman fabricated their stories.
Robert Ricks: “I’ll ask the question again. What if Martin was white and what if Zimmerman was white?”
The belief held by many of the protesters is that if Martin had been white, Zimmerman probably would have been arrested and charged with something right away.
There’s no way of knowing if this is actually what would happen, but I think it’s a position informed by a long history of police ignoring (or in some cases even committing) killings of blacks with very few consequences. This happens more often than you might be aware of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/17/aiyana-jones-7-year-old-s_n_578246.html
During a drug raid, Sgt. Joseph Chavalia shot and killed Tarika Wilson, who was unarmed and holding her 1-year-old son at the time. The boy was also shot, but survived; he had to have a finger amputated. Chavalia had mistaken gunshots downstairs for gunshots directed at him. The family received a large settlement, but justice was not served. Here’s the worst part:
“Police Sgt. Joseph Chavalia, who killed Wilson, was acquitted of criminal charges in her death and has since returned to work, though he is no longer allowed to patrol the streets…
…The city said the case was settled by the insurance company acting on its behalf and is not an admission of liability. The city believes Chavalia acted appropriately during the raid, Geiger said in a statement. The money will be paid by the insurance company.”
http://newsone.com/nation/associated-press/family-of-woman-killed-by-police-while-holding-baby-gets-2-5-million/
Some have claimed that the outrage from the black community has been manufactured for political reasons. But once you do some research into how African-American lives have been treated by many police departments over the years, you can see why some would consider the possibility that Martin’s death falls into this pattern. The reaction from the black community–which has mostly been peaceful and reasonable–is not about politics, it is about a very real concern these people have for their lives and for their dignity.
“What sickens me though is in this alligator tears pursuit of justice we know have the Feds involved in a local matter. Where is the justice for all the other victims of homicide, rape, robbery and burglary? I don’t see the Feds coming out to investigate those crimes.”
The federal government is required by law to investigate possible civil rights violations or hate crimes. This has been the case for decades, and I believe it is one of the stipulations of the Civil Rights Act (although I could be wrong on that detail).
I do agree with you that the video of Zimmerman at the police station does not prove much, except that Zimmerman was in fact taken to a police station in handcuffs, which somewhat contradicts earlier reports from the media.
Re: “Pie Guevara, let the record show that I asked you to give me an actual argument for why you thought I was wrong, instead of relying on ad hominem. You then decided to reply with no argument and more ad hominem. That’s fine with me, I’m just glad that we were able to make each other laugh today.”
Sheesh, when it comes to being an oblivious hypocrite, you really take the cake, Chris.
When a person is a presumptive, arrogant, blow hard, calling that person such is not ad hominem, it is simply fact.
Since you are completely incapable of even the most modest of self-reflection, I’ll give you a hand this once.
You presume that Zimmerman is stupid because he did not take the advice of a 911 operator who was not on the scene and assume that the 911 operator could reliably and properly assess the situation (evidently because you think the 911 operator is an ultimate authority).
You presume Zimmerman is stupid because he followed a person he found to be suspicious.
You presume Zimmerman is stupid because he carried a gun.
You were not there, yet you insist that Zimmerman was stupid because you think his actions, as you can imperfectly understand and reconstruct them, were stupid.
Pardon me Chris, but THAT is stupid. You are not in possession of all the facts, you were not there, and you are no authority.
Please feel free to continue blathering endlessly and at length with your assessment of the situation and Zimmerman’s intelligence (no ad hominem there, right?), I’ll just wait until the facts (as they can be known and as much as they can ever be known) become clear and a grand jury has finished their assessment.
When this blows over you can go back to counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Chris,
While I appreciate your efforts and the time you have methotically spent expressing your opinions in this matter I do not agree with your comment re; “how Blacks have been treated” in this Country. Typical cop-out if you ask me. Heard it, been there, done that. That’s a big fat excuse. Moreover, in reality it has no factual basis here. You are drawing a conclusion based on no evidence other then it’s what you and others want America to believe to be true. And wanting something doesn’t make it happen. Everyday for the next 365 days I could wake up and wish I had a shiny new race car in the driveway, but wishing it to be isn’t gonna make it happen.
I really get bent out of shape when someone throws out “it’s cause I’m Black.” Hey, if you’re a jerk and you held up that liquor store it doesn’t matter to me what color your skin is if your the guy that did it.
In addition, your comparison of the accidental shooting death of that woman by a police sergeant has no bearing here. If anything that case goes against your opinion, if you ask me. You had a policeman in a tense situation make a critical error. A very sad and unfortunate error, but nonetheless an error. Yes, someone died as a result, but he didn’t shoot her because of skin color. He shot her because he had poor training and was not mentally fit to be carrying out an operation of that high risk. His fault and his department’s fault. That’s why his agency paid out. Nothing more.
As far as the investigation conducted by Federal authorities goes regarding Civil Rights, I’ll let your lack of knowledge and experience slide this time and just say this. If this was a hate crime you would need evidence supporting it. Nobody heard Zimmerman call him any racial slurs or epithets. Nobody heard Zimmerman say, “I’m gonna go find me a black man to kill tonight.” Zimmerman didn’t do any of that. Moreover, local law enforcement is charged with investigating crimes committed in their jurisdictions. Contrary to popular belief the great FBI or Secret Service does not rear their heads very often. Usually only when called upon. Stop watching so much TV cop shows where the FBI shows up and says “this is our case now Mr. Hillbilly Sheriff.”
Civil Rights violations are investigated by local law enforcement, Grand Juries and special prosecutors in those jurisdictions. First and foremost you must do a preliminary investigation to show reasonable suspicion a Civil Rights violation occurred. In this case the violation would be deprevation of life and liberty. Because technically by Zimmerman killing Martin, Martin can no longer enjoy his life.
This is not some 1950’s case from Mississippi or Alabama where a cross was burned in Martin’s yard or someone was hung from a tree. It’s not, it’s not, it’s not! STOP trying to make it into that.
Knowing all that we know in this world with the abundance of social media, camera phones, tweets, the news media hounds, helicopters with night vision and the overwhelming examples of lying and corruption exposed everyday why would the Sanford PD and County DA’s Office conspire to get Zimmerman of the hook? They just wouldn’t do it.
Let’s play devil’s advocate for a minute, Chris. Let’s say they did. Give me one valid reason all thos people would risk criminal charges, law suits and loss of employment?
Now, let’s play role reversal and cite one perfect example of election year mania and band wagon antics. Take the County District Attorney who charged the LaCross players at Duke. He was so hell bent on winning favors with black voters he lost his job and his law license. Let’s also talk about the stripper in that case. Just last year she was arrested for stabbing her boyfriend and previously for Arson after she started a fire in her apartment while trying to burn another boyfriends clothing.
Lastly, let’s take another a drive down memory lane and consider some stats. As far back as the 1960’s 50% of all illegal drug abuse was committed by Blacks. What do you think that number is today? Blacks represent 37% of all persons arrested in America for drugs. 19.8% of all Black men between the age of 12 and 20 have used drugs. 743 per every 100,000 persons in America or 0.743% are prisoners in American jails or prisons. Of that number Blacks equate to approx. 40.2% of the total population in America’s prison system. 21% are there for drugs. Over half of all Black inmates released from prison return within a year of their release.
Please, please, please don’t start calling me names. I’m merely stating facts. It’s really sad these number exist, but they do. How do they relate here? Only to show there is a disproportionate number of crimes committed by Blacks then any other ethnic group in America. I’m just tired of people saying they are being fingered for a crime because they are Black. I worked for years in a mostly Hispanic community and I would hear it all the time. “You are only arresting me cause I’m Mexican.” What a buch of B.S. I thought. The same is true here until proven otherwise.
Did Martin commit a crime that night? Was he about to? I don’t know. Maybe that will come out in the investigation. Was he the victim of looking the part of what we have all come to invision a criminal should look like? Maybe. I’m not talking color either. For centuries people cloaked in hoods have filled our imaginations of evil. Popular culture in books and movies have fueled the belief that evil wears a hood. We are all fearful of people who hide their identity. When I saw Hon. Bobby Rush the other day on TV donning the hoodie and glasses I thought he looked like the Unibomber.
“Innocent until proven guilty” is what America should be preaching right now. Nothing more.
“Please feel free to continue blathering endlessly and at length ….
I’ve taught Pie a new word! I am so pleased.
Robert R., you are right on the money. I couldn’t agree more. Thanks for taking the time to write and especially for responding to Chris. He needs all the help he can get. lol
Re: “I’ve taught Pie a new word! I am so pleased.”
Sorry sweetheart, you have added nothing to my vocabulary, but I understand your deep seated need to think you have and crow about how you have increased it.
The only thing you have ever taught me (and Chris) is just how profoundly foolish, stupid and thoughtless humans can be. Thanks for the lesson! It is one I will never forget.
“Lastly, let’s take another a drive down memory lane and consider some stats. As far back as the 1960’s 50% of all illegal drug abuse was committed by Blacks. What do you think that number is today? Blacks represent 37% of all persons arrested in America for drugs. 19.8% of all Black men between the age of 12 and 20 have used drugs. 743 per every 100,000 persons in America or 0.743% are prisoners in American jails or prisons. Of that number Blacks equate to approx. 40.2% of the total population in America’s prison system. 21% are there for drugs. Over half of all Black inmates released from prison return within a year of their release. Please, please, please don’t start calling me names. I’m merely stating facts.” Robert Ricks
Robert, unfortunately the stats are what they are. This little town in Florida seems to have a serious crime problem. If you read the crime stats you can attribute a disproportionate amount of the crime to black offenders. Property crime, like residential burglary, is really high on a per capita basis. That has to be taking a toll on people’s nerves… you’re so likely to get broken into in Sanford.
Were these statistics known to Zimmerman, is that why he had a neighborhood watch program and carried a gun? We don’t know, but anyone ought to be sympathetic to the victims of all that property crime in Sanford. Even though black offenders are doing the lions share of the crime,it doesn’t seem like anyone is blaming the black community or protesting over it. I noticed that the Sanford police dept. seems to be quite racially diverse and sensitive towards serving its minorities.
Wonder why these statistics mean so little to folks? Nobody wants to talk about them. I would think they point out problems for civic leaders to address. Shouldn’t Al and Jesse be talking about that too just to be fair and balanced?