Submitted by Peggy in comments
Did you see Matt Damon pulled his support of Obama and Obama’s reply?
“Celebrity Matt Damon Retracts Support Of Obama
Celebrity Matt Damon, former staunch supporter of President Obama in his 2008 presidential campaign, has now changed his mind.
Damon: “They’ll probably just make whatever deals they can to try to get elected again.”
Obama: “It’s fair to say that when it comes to my presidency, the honeymoon is over…Matt Damon said he’s been disappointed in my performance. Well Matt, I just saw the ‘Adjustment Bureau,’ so…right back atcha buddy.”
Priceless!!
Big win in Utah for the Tea Party —
http://www.libertynews.com/2012/04/21/breaking-tea-party-candidate-wins-big-in-utah-primary-for-utah-house-seat/
Thumbs up, but no celebrating until Nov. 7th!!
The second half of the story is that he had high praise for George Bush because of the work that’s been done as a result of his policies in Africa and Aids. Mr. Damons remarks were honest about something for which he feels strongly…I think maybe the Prez was just being a bit of a *#%*.
The article I got this from on FaceBook didn’t make any mention of Bush. That’s really good news too that Damon actually gave credit to Bush instead of denying his accompolishments and trying to transfer them to Obama.
FB Link:
http://www.ijreview.com/2012/04/3880-celebrity-matt-damon-retracts-support-of-obama/
Yes, the honeymoon’s been over for some time – even Gwen Ifill from PBS has been kind of cold to him lately, and she used to be one of his staunchest supporters.
She’s being nice to Mitt Romney – that can’t be good.
Instead of Obama vs Damon, you should be asking yourself – which would be better for the Republican party, a RINO, or a Democrat who’s already on shaky legs?
Man – speaking of “versus” – did anybody catch that Yankees/Red Sox game yesterday? Yeah Babee, The Swish is my president.
“Which would be better for the Republican party, a RINO, or a Democrat who’s already on shaky legs?” -Juanita
A good question Juanita to which I have no answer, but I’ve got another question for you:
Which would be better for America, a social moderate, but a conservative businessman with strong moral character who believes in capitalism, the Constitution, and preserving America; one who is respected by our allies abroad and comes from an old American family with a US birth certificate or Obama?
And someone who’s father immigrated from Mexico, became very successful and a governor, and gave ALL of his inheritance from his father to charities.
Hummmmm, which way to go?
What was that question so often repeated about the definition of insanity?
Very revealing to see you regurgitating a story propagated solely by white supremacist and gun nut websites. How embarrassing for you. You’re entitled to your opinion, but have some self respect already.
John you’ve got to be kidding! Are you telling us that abc, MTV, and the British, Daily Mail, are all gun toting White supremisist organizations?
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/entertainment/2011/12/matt-damon-down-on-president-obama-in-elle-interview/
http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1632922/matt-damon-disappointed-with-president-obamas-progress.jhtml
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2077220/Matt-Damon-dismisses-Barack-Obama-term-President.html
Coulda fooled me.
Tina, are you embarassed for posting Matt Damon’s quotes? I know I’m not.
The truth never lies. Some people just can’t handle the truth when it doesn’t fit with the lies they’ve believe for over three years now.
Jack: “with a US birth certificate or Obama?”
Obama also has a US birth certificate, you ignorant jerk.
Peggy: “Tina, are you embarassed for posting Matt Damon’s quotes? I know I’m not.”
Gee Peggy, why should either of us be embarassed? If the Democrats don’t mind taking millions of dollars from celebrities why should we worry about posting what they say as reported by folks at abc, MTV and others. I mean which is more demeaning, sucking up to celebrities for money or posting what one of them said?
Chris, million Americans still question his birthplace, in fact 1 in 4 think he was not born in the United States. Even more republicans believe that…41% in fact. However, my real reason for saying that was merely to get a rise out of you. It was just a little poke, however your reaction was unfortunate. That’s too bad. Next time please try to stay within the boundaries of reasonable discourse.
Sources: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/40644.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20056061-503544.html
John…so Alan Dershowitz, the outspoken liberal democrat is now being linked to white supremacists websites because he has issues with the Zimmerman case? lol Oh geez, are you serious? This was a joke, right? It has to be.
Yes, a birth certificate was posted on the WH web site, but an investigation shows “probable cause” it could be a forgery. Obama’s selective service card also shows “probable cause” of being forged. (See videos at the end of the first link below.)
————–
‘Probable cause’ Obama certificate a fraud:
The investigators say the evidence contained in the computer-generated PDF file released by the White House as well as important deficiencies in the Hawaii process of certifying the long-form birth certificate establish probable cause that a forgery has been committed.
The videos consist of step-by-step computer demonstrations using a control document. They display the testing used by the investigators to examine various claims made by supporters of the April 27 document.
The investigators contend the videos illustrate their conclusion that the features and anomalies observed on the Obama long-form birth certificate were inconsistent with features produced when a paper document is scanned, even if the scan is enhanced by Optical Character Recognition, OCR, and optimized.
Additionally, the posse says, the videos demonstrate that the Hawaii Department of Health Registrars name stamp and the registrars date stamp were computer-generated images imported into an electronic document, as opposed to rubber stamp imprints inked by hand or machine onto a paper document.
That we were able to cast reasonable suspicions on the authenticity of the registrar stamps was especially disturbing, since these stamp imprints are designed to provide government authentication to the document itself, Zullo said, emphasizing that if the registrar stamps are forgeries, the document itself is likely a forgery.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/sheriff-joes-posse-probable-cause-obama-certificate-a-fraud/
High court justice: Obama birth certificate fishy:
An Alabama State Supreme Court justice earlier this week agreed that findings suggesting Barack Obama presented a forged birth certificate to the nation would raise serious questions about the [document’s] authenticity if presented as evidence in court.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/03/high-court-justice-obama-birth-certificate-fishy/?cat_orig=politics
Jack: “Next time please try to stay within the boundaries of reasonable discourse.”
I’m sorry, but since when does spreading xenophobic, racist conspiracy theories about the president fall under the umbrella of “reasonable discourse?” There is nothing reasonable about birtherism. Nothing. Obama has done more than any other president in history to prove that he was born in the United States, and it will NEVER be good enough for some of you, who will do or say anything to destroy him. I’m sorry for calling you a name, but there’s only so much of this crap a guy can take sometimes.
I could have called you far worse for your assertion in another thread that we’d all be better off if every single person in Afghanistan were killed by a meteor. And I would have been justified no matter what I had called you in response to that, because your comments were that vicious, bigoted and disgusting.
Peggy, the “investigation” you’re talking about is run by Sherrif Joe Arpaio. If that doesn’t say it all, I’ll remind you that Arpaio is himself currently under a much more serious investigation by the federal government for dozens if not hundreds of civil rights violations. These allegations against Arpaio are much more credible and are backed by far more evidence and witnesses than any claims against Obama’s birth certificate. He’s also under investigation from the FBI for abuse of power allegations. Do you think it’s possible that Arpaio might have a grudge against the president because of all this? That his investigation may be politically motivated? Why on earth would you find his team to be a credible source of information on this issue?
Peggy,
The claims put forward by Arpaio’s “posse” are not new, and have been debunked by, of all places, FOX News:
“It didnt take long for some of President Obamas doubters to claim the long-awaited birth certificate posted online by the White House on Wednesday had been altered or might be a fake.
But a leading software expert says theres no doubt about its authenticity, and he dismisses claims of fraud as flat-out wrong.
The doubters have latched onto the idea that Adobe Illustrator the premier program for computer graphic artists reveals evidence of document manipulation in the Obama birth certificate. They note Illustrator reveals nine separate layers of the document, and claim its proof the file has been altered.
But thats not so, says Jean-Claude Tremblay, a leading software trainer and Adobe-certified expert, who has years of experience working with and teaching Adobe Illustrator.
You should not be so suspicious about this, Tremblay told FoxNews.com, dismissing the allegations.
He said the layers cited by doubters are evidence of the use of common, off-the-shelf scanning software not evidence of a forgery. I have seen a lot of illustrator documents that come from photos and contain those kind of clippingsand it looks exactly like this, he said.
Tremblay explained that the scanner optical character recognition (OCR) software attempts to translate characters or words in a photograph into text. He said the layers cited by the doubters shows that software at work and nothing more.
When you open it in Illustrator it looks like layers, but it doesnt look like someone built it from scratch. If someone made a fake it wouldnt look like this, he said.Some scanning software is trying to separate the background and the text and splitting element into layers and parts of layers.
Tremblay also said that during the scanning process, instances where the software was unable to separate text fully from background led to the creation of a separate layer within the document. This could be places where a signature runs over the line of background, or typed characters touch the internal border of the document.
I know that you can scan a document from a scanner most of the time it will appear as one piece, but that doesnt mean that theres no software thats doing this kind of stuff, he said, adding that its really quite common.
Id be more afraid itd be fake if it was one in piece. It would be harder to check if its a good one if its a fake, Tremblay said.”
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/04/29/expert-says-obamas-birth-certificate-legit/#ixzz1ssUn4eCI
More debunking here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/59087668/Response-to-Zebest
I can’t resist butting into this conversation.
It occurs to me that Chris’s PC arguments are so incredibly gutless and empty. There is absolutely zero reason to claim xenophobia and racism in this dispute about the President’s birth certificate. The only reason for doing so is to attempt to discredit and smear those who ask questions that the press refused to ask before he was chosen as the dem candidate. The question of his birth would be as suspicious regardless his race.
The president’s own behavior suggests he was covering up the circumstances of his birth. He spent over a million dollars attempting to block discovery of evidence of his birth. An honest man would just release the original birth certificate at the first moment it was questioned. Instead he fought and paid a lot of money to avoid what should have been a simple solution.
The American people have a right to question anyone who seeks to hold the highest office in our country. When the media fails to vet the candidate it is left to individuals to ask questions. Eligibility is an important issue. The founders thought it important enough to include specifics in the Consttitution.
Xenophobic accusations with respect to Afghanistan are also ridiculous. Jacks exagerated solution was an indication of his frustration at the backward, barbarous elements in the country. Anyone who hasn’t been molded by PC propaganda would recognize it as such. Interesting that your sensitivity toward others does not carry when it comes to your political opponenets. You have no problem judging and condemning Jack or Peggy.
I, for one, am absolutely unwilling to stand down in the face of your knee jerk responses. Accusations of racism or zenophobia are crap in this discussion. Your training holds true, however, the left always spews this crap whenever anyone dares question this leader or when anyone suggest we should do a better job regarding immigration.
Chris you are out of line. Object to the questions all you want but drop the PC accusations, they are gutless crap that pose as argument.
Chris, there are times when anger and frustration build to the point where I overstate my case, Afghanistan being one of them. Of course I wouldn’t wish millions of people would be wiped out by a meteor, any more than you would. I would wish that every fanatic that poses a threat to others might meet that fate, but you can’t fault me if that happens to be half the country! lol
Okay, so I do misspeak on rare occasions, but its for reasons that are generally valid and I have to trust to you to understand there’s no evil behind it. But, I draw that line at name calling, especially people I know and care about, like yourself. That’s too personal and I won’t go there.
Despite your stubborn, often frustrating attachment to dangerously ill conceived liberalism, I have hope you will eventually mature to the adult side of the argument. My hope has been dimming as of late, but nevertheless it is still there.
Tina, that was incredibly nice of you to come to my defense and I am genuinely touched by that. Thank you and you made a lot very valid points that I should have said earlier, but thanks for saying what I believe.
Chris: “The claims put forward by Arpaio’s “posse” are not new, and have been debunked by, of all places, FOX News…”
All this means is that FOX News reported in a “fair and balanced” manner as they always do.
We have no idea whether this man’s opinion is any better than the opinion expressed by several experts that claim the document in question was altered. His explanation doesn’t adequately explain how letters in sequence in a signature would appear differently…part of it very solid and defined and part of it pixelated.
Tremblay said, When you open it in Illustrator it looks like layers, but it doesnt look like someone built it from scratch. If someone made a fake it wouldnt look like this.
But the accusation is NOT that it was made from scratch or that someone “made a fake”. the accusation is that the original was altered. How do we know this guy isn’t an Obama operative? How do we know he wasn’t instreucted by lawyers exactly how to speak so that technically he isn’t lying but sopecifically he hasn’t really debunked the charges at all. A lawyer would gamble that MOST people wouldn’t notice the difference.
At this point, with hopes that this adminitration is soon OVER, there is little point to pursuing the charge other than to write correct history and avoid making a similar error in future. There is absolutely nothing wrong with investigating what appears to be suspicious behavior and unanswered questions regarding the unwillingness by this administration to be open and honest about the president’s records.
Chris, Let me state right up front I hope Obama is a natural born citizen and, therefore, is qualified to be our president. It was a great day for our country to have a black man elected to our highest office and it will be again when the first woman and other minorities that will follow him. But, until he allows Hawaii to release the actual certificate, not just one posted to the WH website, many will always wonder. We are supposed to be a land of laws and those laws are supposed to be followed. We know of his history because of his own words written in his book, Dreams From My Father, and recorded and written statements by him and others that have contributed to the doubts raised.
Like Tina said, equal numbers of pro and con teams of experts could go on forever arguing their case when it could all be put to rest with presenting the actual certificate. Even by not doing so adds fuel to those who doubt.
In addition to the birth certificate video is the Selective Service card video, which also has compelling evidence of not being authentic. The 1980 stamp that appears on the other SS cards on the dates both before and after Obamas appears as required by law. But, Obamas only has the 80 minus the 19 which is not in compliance and makes no reasonable sense.
Chris, even the high court judge agreed that the compelling evidence presented did qualify as probable cause. Talk about an expert, Id say hes at the top of the list. The only reason he didnt allow the case to proceed was because the states existing law didnt require eligibility proof.
And the interview and deposition of the post man that delivered Bill Ayres parents mail for 20 years brings up even more questions that need answering. Mrs. Ayers told the post man they were supporting a foreign student through college. He says he met Obama at the house and said he was going to be president some day. Obama in a speech just this last week even talked about someone helping him and Michelle through college. Was that someone Bill Ayers parents? Another question that needs to be answered along with his secret transcripts. Would they show hes a foreign student? Produce them to show us he is a natural born citizen.
Wikipedias definition and court cases are too numerous to quote, but presents a clear understanding that whether the use of a natural or native born citizen means someone was born in the US or someone who was born outside of the US to US citizens. Seems fairly simple to me, so why all the fuss? He either was born in Hawaii or he was born some place else and his mother was a US citizen. Do I have that right or wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen_of_the_United_States
More fuel being added to Obamas citizenship debate is the opposition now coming from Eric Holder stopping Arizona and other states from changing their state laws to requiring all candidates to show proof of eligibility before having their name added to the states ballots. Sounds again like a reasonable thing to do since it would simply complying with the required mandates. Another red flag goes up with the opposition raising the question again, why?
If the expert on Fox or other experts have documented proof and videos like the Cold Case Posse team does, please share them so we can compare. Id like to see them.
I shutter to think what a mess this country will be in if it is ever proved beyond a doubt that he is NOT qualified to be our president. So, I pray that he is, but I think everything possible should be done and done now to prevent our country from ever going through this again. Every state should be allowed to change their laws to include proof of eligibility as a part of the candidate filling forms and process.
Geez, as a low-level public employee I had to show proof of my citizenship status and every student I hired had to do the same. Cant believe NONE of our elected officials at the highest-level arent held to at least the same requirements. That realization alone is shocking!
Peggy as I wrote on a previous entry my oldest son had to present his birth certificate and not proof of registration just to join Little League and play baseball! When a candidate for president hides all of his school transcripts and identity papers he’s automatically suspect in my book.
Not to sound like a teenager, but I TOTALLY agree. It only makes sense. Not doing something sooooo reasonable, takes very little time and effort and that complies with the required mandates only validates the case that there is something wrong and, therefore, to hide.
Weve been down this road so many times before with Chris and others, but no one has ever presented the actual documents to prove their side of the argument. If they want us to shut up then put up. Id love to put this to rest.
No politician wants to address the issue because its an election year, but with Obama by-passing the Congress with his Executive Orders we are going to in for one HELL of a ride if he wins in November. Even if the Republicans take control of both the House and the Senate there will be no stopping him. Hes showing every sign to me that well have a king-like figure instead of a Republic.
Back to the original post about Matt Damon pulling his support says a lot about how disappointed even those that once supported him are. Would love to know how many more there are and their reasons. Did Obama not stay far enough left on the far lefts agenda for them or did they come to understand just what that Change really meant to him, Pelosi and Reid of giving up our rights to big government control.
Tina, did you watch the video about the Selective Service card? It blew me away even more then the birth certificate video. If you havent and do, let me know what you think. The explanation of how it was done and why makes complete sense to me since I used those stamps for 20 plus years.
Laws need to be changed at the state level if theyre allowed to change them. If your young son had to provide a birth certificate to play ball and I had to provide proof of citizenship or a valid work visa to have a job no lesser should be required of the most powerful man in the world. We just need the brave men and women elected to make it happen.
Another Democrat Obama supporter bites the dust.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/democrat-comic-obamas-a-f-ing-a-hole/
I only have time to respond to one thing right now.
Peggy, you said, “Weve been down this road so many times before with Chris and others, but no one has ever presented the actual documents to prove their side of the argument. If they want us to shut up then put up. Id love to put this to rest.”
This is completely untrue, Peggy, and I’m not sure why you said it. I have posted links to both of Obama’s birth certificates, the long-form and short-form, numerous times. Jack and Tina have also linked to these documents. Both documents contain all information necessary for proof of citizenship in accordance with the State Department.
You also said, “But, until he allows Hawaii to release the actual certificate, not just one posted to the WH website, many will always wonder.”
I don’t understand what you mean by this, either. The one posted on the White House website IS the actual certificate. Actually, there are now two birth certificates posted on the website; the long form and the short form.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf
http://documents.latimes.com/barack-obama-short-form-birth-certificate/
Please explain your request for further birth certificates. These are all that exist; there are no more.
Tina, xenophobia and racism have of course played a huge role in keeping birtherism alive. All available evidence points to the fact that Barack Obama was born in Hawaii, while there is zero available evidence showing that he was born anywhere else. Despite these facts, birthers attempt to portray Obama as a foreign “Other,” a usurper to the White House. Go to any birther website and you will find racist comments, you will find people calling Obama a “Manchurian candidate,” and you will find bizarre conspiracy theories such as the one Pamela Geller published, which claims that Malcolm X is Barack Obama’s real father. That’s my favorite one so far.
The point of birtherism is to portray Obama not only as un-American or anti-American, but as non-American. And this has not been limited only to birtherism, but has been a key component to the fight against Obama in certain corners of the right wing. Do you remember when that crazy lady at a town hall meeting told John McCain, “I don’t trust Obama, I’ve read about him. He’s an Arab?” McCain was wise enough to correct her, saying that Obama was a “decent person,” and to that he was met with boos from the audience!
That was only one instance of clear racism and xenophobia. There was also the phony charge that Obama attended a madrassa as a child. This was used to further the phony meme that Obama is a Muslim, which way too many Republicans still believe according to many polls.
Dinesh D’Souza wrote an entire book positing the racist and xenophobic theory that in order to understand the actions and mindset of Barack Obama, one would first have to understand the philosophy of “Kenyan anti-colonialism.” The book was filled with errors and faleshoods, and the basic premises made no sense. D’Souza claims that Obama’s philosophy was “inherited” from Obama’s father…whom he met only one time in his entire life. In fact, as this conservative writer for the Weekly Standard points out, “DSouza misreads the entire memoir [Dreams from my Father]: Far from admiring his father and emulating him, Obama makes his disillusionment with his father one of the themes of his own life story.”
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/roots-lunacy_508809.html?page=2
D’Souza also claims that Obama’s “Kenyan anti-colonialism” causes him to have an irrational hatred of the British. He bases this in large part on the infamous story of Obama returning a bust of Winston Churchhil after he moved into the White House. But the bust was 1) a loan, not a permanent fixture 2) was specifically loaned to George W. Bush, and 3) the loan was expired. There was nothing at all unusual about Obama choosing not to extend the loan; that something so routine and trivial was intentionally misreported as an international incident shows how little respect certain news sources have for the truth. D’Souza also falsely claims that Obama referred to “BP” as “British Petroleum” in his speech after the Gulf oil spill, which the Weekly Standard writer also points out is not true.
Newt Gingrich whole-heartedly endorsed D’Souza’s book, and the racist and xenophobic theories behind it. He rhetorically asked, What if [Obama] is so outside our comprehension, that only if you understand Kenyan, anti-colonial behavior, can you begin to piece together [his actions]? That is the most accurate, predictive model for his behavior.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/246302/gingrich-obama-s-kenyan-anti-colonial-worldview-robert-costa
This should be ludicrous, as well as repulsive, on it’s face. Obama hasn’t done anything that American progressives haven’t been championing for years. Furthermore, some of his most controversial decisions–such as his passing of an individual mandate for health insurance–were originated by American conservatives! There is absolutely nothing about his actions so far as president that need to be explained by “Kenyan anti-colonialism.” Yet D’Souza acts as if Obama’s strange Kenyan brain is so alien and bizarre that regular Americans can’t possibly understand it without looking at a foreign philosophy. The book merely attempts to further associate Obama with foreignness, with Otherness. He exoticizes Obama’s Kenyan ancestry in order to provoke a gut reaction of fear and paranoia from his audience. The title itself is laughable; D’Souza tries desperately to portray Obama as an angry, rage-filled black man, which is no easy feat considering the cool and collected manner in which Obama has always carried himself. The book is clearly designed to play on xenophobia and racial anxiety. That D’Souza is himself a person of color does not excuse him from such actions. He should know better.
Also, are we supposed to think it’s bad and un-American to be anti-colonial? Really? Uh, I’m pretty sure the founders of our country were pretty anti-colonial themselves. They kind of fought a war over it. What does this make Dinesh D’Souza? Pro-colonial? Is that what he thinks good Americans are supposed to be? Does Newt Gingrich agree with him on that?
Rush Limbaugh is practically obsessed with Obama’s race; he brings it up all the time, and for no good reason. He has called Obama a “halfrican-American,” said that he isn’t really black, and called a vanilla-and-chocolate Oreo cookie an “Obam-e-o.” He has claimed that the Affordable Care Act is an attempt at “reparations,” which makes absolutely zero sense, since it gives no special privileges to African-Americans whatsoever. Only a person completely obsessed with Obama’s race could say such a profoundly stupid thing. When a white kid was beaten up by some black kids on a bus, Rush Limbaugh said, “This is Obama’s America,” in an attempt to make his listeners believe that this incident had Obama’s tacit approval. He has also tried to Other-ize Obama by claiming that he was standing up for Muslims and trying to “wipe out Christians” in Uganda by sending troops there to stop genocidal maniac Joseph Kony. That incident will never be anything by disgusting and evil, no matter how you try to make it sound like an innocent mistake that couldn’t have possibly been motivated by anything other than Rush Limbaugh loving America too much.
Given all of this, Tina, I’m afraid your position that birtherism couldn’t possibly have anything to do with either racism or xenophobia is, at best, painfully naive. I haven’t even mentioned the fact that the man currently spearheading the “investigation” into Obama’s birth certificate, Joe Arpaio, is himself under investigation for literally hundreds of instances of racial discrimination. I’m sorry, but NO ONE faces as many lawsuits from as many people who claim to be victimized by him unless they’re guilty of at least some of those violations. But I guess you think all of this is just a big coincidence? There can’t be any connection between the hundreds of charges of racism against this man, and his current investigation into the birth certificate of our first black president.
Finally, your claim that a white president would be undergoing the same kind of scrutiny is hard to believe. John McCain was asked for his birth certificate during the 2008 election as well, true. But once he presented it, the issue was dropped. No one accused him of forging it, no one came up with elaborate conspiracy theories based on falsehoods in order to convince people he wasn’t really a natural born citizen.
Now, all that said, this does not mean that everyone who opposes Obama is a racist or a xenophobe. But you have not just turned a blind eye to those in your party who have utilized these disgusting methods to combat Barack Obama. You’ve celebrated these people. You’ve never admitted when they’ve crossed a line. You refuse to acknowledge clear-cut instances of racism, like when Ann Coulter said that all Arab-Americans should ride “magic carpets” instead of flying by airplane like normal Americans, or when she followed up by telling a 17-year old Arab-American girl to “take a camel.” You couldn’t bring yourself to admit that this was racist, because Ann Coulter is part of your club. That is partisanship at it’s absolute worst. I don’t believe in calling all Republicans and Tea Party members racists, but Tina, if you lie down with dogs, you’re going to get fleas. I have no sympathy for you when you continue to deny clear-cut instances of racism and xenophobia just because you don’t want to lose an election. It is damaging to our political process and it does no one any good.
Jack, I understand your anger and frustration at the fanatics in Afghanistan, but you can’t let that anger spill over onto the innocent civilians in that area as well. I know you did not mean what you said, but your comments have real-world implications. The ideas you presented are used to justify collateral damage in war. There have been thousands of civilian casualties in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Men, women and children have been killed in botched operations and miscalculated air strikes. Did you ever see the video posted by Wikileaks where U.S. soldiers bombed a van, which turned out to have children on board and no enemy combatants? You can hear the soldiers comments to each other before and after the strike. They sound like they are playing a damn video game. They seem to have no conception of the lives they just ended. That’s what your comments reminded me of–the idea that destruction is the answer, and that civilian lives don’t matter.
U know you don’t really believe that civilian lives don’t matter, and I do understand where your comments come from. But I think it is important that you realize how dangerous such attitudes are and how callous they make you sound. People have died because of the attitudes you expressed in that comment.
Tina and Peggy, you both asked why you should believe my expert over others who have claimed that the birth certificate is a forgery.
I ask you, are either of you familiar with Occam’s Razor? “The simplest explanation is usually the right one?”
The explanation provided by your experts requires us to believe that a massive conspiracy has been committed. This conspiracy includes the president of the United States, the current governor of Hawaii, the former governor of Hawaii (a Republican), the health director of Hawaii, and probably many middle management people in that department as well. It requires us to believe that these people all got together to forge not one, but two birth certificates for Barack Obama–a short form and a long form. And it requires us to believe that with all their expertise and connections, these people couldn’t manage to get a forged birth certificate that looked accurate.
The explanation provided by my expert only requires us to believe that some people have misunderstood how Adobe Acrobat works.
Which explanation is simpler and more reasonable?
Here’s another conservative source demonstrating why the birth certificate is not a forgery:
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/265767/pdf-layers-obamas-birth-certificate-nathan-goulding
“We have received several e-mails today calling into question the validity of the PDF that the White House released, namely that there are embedded layers in the document. There are now several other people on the case. We looked into it and dismissed it.
The PDF is composed of multiple images. Thats correct. Using a photo editor or PDF viewer of your choice, you can extract this image data, view it, hide it, etc. But these layers, as theyre being called, arent layers in the traditional photo-editing sense of the word. They are, quite literally, pieces of image data that have been positioned in a PDF container. They appear as text but also contain glyphs, dots, lines, boxes, squiggles, and random garbage. Theyre not combined or merged in any way. Quite simply, they look like they were created programmatically, not by a human.
Whats plausible is that somewhere along the way from the scanning device to the PDF-creation software, both of which can perform OCR (optical character recognition) these partial/pseudo-text images were created and saved. Whats not plausible is that the government spent all this time manufacturing Obamas birth certificate only to commit the laughably rookie mistake of exporting the layers from Photoshop, or whatever photo editing software they are meant to have used. Its likely that whoever scanned the birth certificate in Hawaii forgot to turn off the OCR setting on the scanner. Lets leave it at that.
UPDATE: Ive confirmed that scanning an image, converting it to a PDF, optimizing that PDF, and then opening it up in Illustrator, does in fact create layers similar to what is seen in the birth certificate PDF. You can try it yourself at home.
UPDATE II: For those of you who still arent convinced, heres a one-page PDF that I just scanned and optimized, so you can see for yourself that an optimized PDF shows up in Illustrator as layers. (I didnt spend hours getting the settings right.)”
Peggy: “More fuel being added to Obamas citizenship debate is the opposition now coming from Eric Holder stopping Arizona and other states from changing their state laws to requiring all candidates to show proof of eligibility before having their name added to the states ballots. Sounds again like a reasonable thing to do since it would simply complying with the required mandates. Another red flag goes up with the opposition raising the question again, why?”
One good reason, Peggy, is that this is yet another example of Republicans proposing a solution in search of a problem. There is no evidence that any non-citizen has ever been elected to office in the United States, so why are Republicans wasting taxpayer time and money on this non-issue? This proposal is nothing but a symbolic “screw you” to the president. It is meant to perpetuate birtherism, not to solve an actual problem.
Republicans have done the same thing with their proposed anti-Sharia laws and voter ID laws. These proposals do not deal with the real problems Americans are concerned about, they are simply political ploys designed to appease the paranoia of the far right. Funny that the party that is supposedly against government waste has no problem wasting our time and money on such bogus issues.
Chris, okay your point is well taken so I won’t kill those millions in Afghanistan, but just this once and as a favor to you. ; )
Chris I don’t visit birther websites because as I’ve told you I’m not that interested. I have enough to do finding articles of interest to post here and replying to comments by the wonderful people who take the time to express themselves here.
My interest is based in curiosity about what would cause Obama to be so secretive about his life and his willingness to spend so much to avoid what should have been a very simple process. As I said before, Obama has brought a lot of this on himself by hiding his records, by making rather bizarre statements himself (on tape; we’ve posted them).
“That was only one instance of clear racism and xenophobia.”
Clear? For some, maybe. It could easily be the dsame kind of mistrust they would feel toward anyone who was as secretive and who had such hard dleft ideas.
Since I’m not a “birther” I can’t get too wound up in arguing the points further.
“This should be ludicrous, as well as repulsive, on it’s face. Obama hasn’t done anything that American progressives haven’t been championing for years.”
I haven’t read thouroughly enough to argue any of the points you make about D’Souzas book or the Weekly Standard review. It’s enough for me that he masks his commitment to the far left position with pretty speeches, that he hypocritically takes money from wealthy bankers and corporate heads while chiding and targeting corporations for destruction, and that he seems to be absolutely unavailable in terms of leadership. It’s enough for me that he spends (and wastes) money like a drunken sailor and takes lavish vacations while millions of Americans are barely making it, losing their homes, and can’t find work. It’s quite enough for me that he divides rather than leads or unites America. It’s enough that he uses street language when he speaks…so much for the great oratory skills.
” are we supposed to think it’s bad and un-American to be anti-colonial?”
I think it’s bad to make a “colonial” case against America…which the left was constantly doing when criticising Bush. Funny they aren’t making that argument now.
OK…here we go again. Newt, Rush…Joe Arpaio. First of all I don’t know that you know what you are talking about. The left publishes a lot of crap that just isn’t the TRUTH. They also have a long record of harrassment, bullying, and lying to make political hay. Please refrain from asking me to answer questions about what other people say. I can accept rhetorical questions as a matter of emphasis…THAT IS ALL. If you have questions please ask the person that has the authority, because it is his words you question, to answer.
“There can’t be any connection between the hundreds of charges of racism against this man, and his current investigation into the birth certificate of our first black president.”
A phone call to several SEIU and ACORN thugs and yep I can envision that many charges of racism.
“But once he presented it, the issue was dropped.”
He presented it immediately…like any person who isn’t hiding his records would. Obama did NOT do that. You seem unwilling to get that the pursuit of this document has come as a result of Obama attempting to keep it and a lot of other things hidden and spending a bunch of money on lawyers to do it. Why Chris,,,whats the logical explanation?
“Given all of this, Tina, I’m afraid your position that birtherism couldn’t possibly have anything to do with either racism or xenophobia is, at best, painfully naive.”
Given that you are a person that sees racism or some phobia or another in everything I’m not surprised you think so. Please reread the first two paragraphs above.
“Now, all that said, this does not mean that everyone who opposes Obama is a racist or a xenophobe.”
Excuse me for saying so but…how big of you.
Geez, Chris, do you have any idea how…ugly your obsession with what you believe are other people’s motives?
Chris, I dont have a lot of time to answer your post because Im getting ready to leave for a couple of weeks, so Ill defer to Tinas post as expressing my view.
As Ive stated before I dont believe Im a birther. Obamas delay for years and/or never providing documents of his birth, college transcripts, etc. has brought the cloud of doubt upon himself. If there was/is nothing to hide, being transparent and open would have prevented all of this doubt many people have.
I also said I was glad he was elected and it was a great moment to have a minority be our president. Ive even supported Herman Cain and Allen West, so calling me a racist is just wrong.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, applies to states being able to require candidates to provide proof of their eligibility for the office they seek. As Tina and Ive have said we were REQUIRED to provide ORIGINAL documents prior to her son playing little league and my getting a job only makes sense the top position in this nation should have the same requirement as the lowest levels.
As for Arpaio its to hard to tell if the charges against him are because of his work or if Obamas team is after him because of his investigations and his support of AZ immigrations 1070 law. Logically it appears the attacks against him are because of his opposition to their compliance demands and not retaliation as youve suggested. Even the EPA has used similar tactics and is now being investigated because of the directors remarks about crucifying people/businesses as examples to create fear and compliance.
This IS a free country Chris and we do have the right to question things we see as unanswered or wrong. It is wrong to me to not require candidates for the highest position in our country to be held to the same requirements as the lowest. If it did we would never be discussing this again. Period!
Chris your remarks to Peggy about voter laws, presidential qualifications, and anti-sharia laws all have to do with preserving our nation and it’s Constitutional principles and laws.
I know the Constitution is not held in high regard by some in leadership positions on the left who consider our Constitution as some old rag written by a bunch of white guys. Ruth Bader Ginsberg prefers the South African constitution:
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/02/06/why_does_ruth_bader_ginsburg_like_the_south_african_constitution_so_much
Obama thinks the US Constitution limits him too much and is flawed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11OhmY1obS4
The right disagrees…PROFOUNDLY!
Here is another case from Tennessee seeking to change their state ballot eligibility requirements that has no connection to Arpiao.
——————
Judge wants definition of ‘natural born citizen’
‘Resolution of this federal issue will resolve the case’
Bob Unruh
A federal judge has determined in a case challenging Barack Obamas eligibility for a state ballot that the meaning of the constitutional phrase natural born citizen is important and not trivial.
U.S. District Judge S. Thomas Anderson of Tennessee said the courts ultimately must define natural born citizen, affirming that the issue of whether President Obama is constitutionally qualified to run for the presidency is certainly substantial.
This specific question has been raised in numerous lawsuits filed since President Obama took office, Anderson wrote in his opinion. The outcome of the federal question in this case will certainly have an effect on other cases presenting the same issue about whether President Obama meets the constitutional qualifications for the presidency.
Van Irion, whose Liberty Legal Foundation brought the case, alleges the plan by Tennessee Democrats to register Obama as their nominee for president opens a case, under state law, of negligent misrepresentation and fraud or intentional misrepresentation because of doubts about Obamas eligibility.
Irion was pleased the court recognized the significance of the claims.
The court made several very positive statements about our case, he noted.
He cited Andersons statement that the court finds that the federal question presented, the meaning of the phrase natural born citizen as a qualification for the presidency set out in Article II of the Constitution, is important and not trivial.
It is clear that the stated federal issue of President Obamas qualifications for the office are actually disputed and substantial, the judge said.
Anderson said it also is clear that there will be a legal dispute over the Constitutions definition of natural born citizen and the Supreme Courts decision in Minor.
Full article:
http://www.wnd.com/2012/04/judge-wants-definition-of-natural-born-citizen/
Tina: “Chris I don’t visit birther websites”
Hm, I seem to recall you linking to WND every now and then, which is pretty much the numero uno birther website.
“Clear? For some, maybe. It could easily be the dsame kind of mistrust they would feel toward anyone who was as secretive and who had such hard dleft ideas.”
*sigh* Oh, come on, Tina. She said she didn’t trust Obama because he was an Arab! If that’s not xenophobic and racist, then nothing is. And it’s not at all the same kind of mistrust that, say, a President John Edwards would be greeted with.
“Please refrain from asking me to answer questions about what other people say.”
But you just did that. You said that xenophobia and racism have nothing to do with birtherism. If you’re going to make a statement like that one second, you can’t act all unqualified to speak for them the next.
“He presented it immediately…like any person who isn’t hiding his records would. Obama did NOT do that.”
Tina, I really try to give you the benefit of the doubt when it comes to your motivations, but you make it hard when you repeat claims that you KNOW are falsehoods. You know as well as I do that Barack Obama revealed his legal birth certificate around the same time as John McCain, during the 2008 election. Why would you say something that you know isn’t true?
“spending a bunch of money on lawyers to do it. Why Chris,,,whats the logical explanation?”
The logical explanation, as usual when discussing this topic, is that you are misinformed.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/apr/12/donald-trump/donald-trump-claims-obama-has-spent-2-million-lega/
There is no evidence that Obama has spent large sums of money on fighting frivolous birther lawsuits. This is yet another lie made up by the birthers and echoed by professional liars such as Donald Trump and Sarah Palin.
Have you really not noticed a pattern of lying by the birthers, Tina? Almost everything they say turns out to be false. The original claim was that the COLB Obama presented during the campaign wasn’t a legal birth certificate…no one still believes that load of garbage. And yet, every time one of their points gets knocked down, two more spring up in it’s place like a hydra. Doesn’t this raise any red flags with you? Why can’t you figure out that these people are like the boy who cried wolf, and that they can’t be trusted?
“Given that you are a person that sees racism or some phobia or another in everything”
And you see it in nothing. Wait, that’s not right; you see racism perfectly well when you think it’s directed at white people. Other than that, racism apparently no longer exists. It doesn’t matter what stereotypes or slurs the talking heads on your side of the aisle use, you seem incapable of seeing anything they do as racist.
“Geez, Chris, do you have any idea how…ugly your obsession with what you believe are other people’s motives?”
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I could give a fig about people’s “motives.” I care about what people say and do when it impacts our political process. The words I cited from D’Souza, Limbaugh and Gingrich ARE racist and xenophobic, and I explained very clearly why (even though I shouldn’t have to; most of them are self-explanatory). Whatever their motivations, their actions perpetuate stereotypes and serve to divide people based on paranoia and fear of the Other. I don’t know what’s in their hearts, but I do know that what comes out of their mouths is uglier than anything I have ever said about any of them. You refuse to acknowledge this ugliness. I do think I have talked to you long enough to understand why you refuse to do so, but for now, I won’t speculate on your motivations. I can only judge people by their actions and words.
Peggy: “Obamas delay for years and/or never providing documents of his birth,”
You know, I am really not sure how much more of this I can take before I start pulling out my hair.
For the eleventy-billionth time, there was NO DELAY in Obama providing documents of his birth. He did this in 2008. He provided a legal document that met all of the State Department’s requirements for proving citizenship, and he posted it online for the entire world to see.
You know this, Peggy. So do you, Tina. I’ve told you both a thousand times, and I’ve provided proof. Yet both of you chose to again repeat the lie that Obama “delayed” in providing his birth certificate. Why are you doing this? What do you hope to gain from it?
“I also said I was glad he was elected and it was a great moment to have a minority be our president. Ive even supported Herman Cain and Allen West, so calling me a racist is just wrong.”
I never called you a racist. I said that racism has a lot to do with the birther movement. There is a big difference.
“As for Arpaio its to hard to tell if the charges against him are because of his work or if Obamas team is after him because of his investigations and his support of AZ immigrations 1070 law.”
The problem with the idea that this is retribution from Obama is that charges of racial discrimination against Arpaio go back decades. I knew about the charges against him for prisoner abuse, racism, and neglect of issues such as sex crimes in his area before I’d ever even heard of Barack Obama. The DOJ and the FBI should have gone after Arpaio years ago.
“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, applies to states being able to require candidates to provide proof of their eligibility for the office they seek. As Tina and Ive have said we were REQUIRED to provide ORIGINAL documents prior to her son playing little league and my getting a job only makes sense the top position in this nation should have the same requirement as the lowest levels.”
Peggy, you realize that pretty much all elected officials in the United States have passports, right? How do you think they obtained those passports?
Also, neither of you answered my question about which is more logical, the conspiracy theory that you are entertaining, or the idea that some people just misunderstand technology.
Tina: “Ruth Bader Ginsberg prefers the South African constitution”
Funny how that’s not at all what she says in the article you linked to.
Chris you are becoming a real bore. We have been over this enough times to cover our differences and the repetition just takes too much time. Your perspective and opinion are your own; I respect that. I don’t feel the need to further explain my perspective and opinion and I really would rather focus on other things since, as I have told you on at least two seperate occassions, I am only interested in this in a passing way because of the Constitutional concern.
Tina, you are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts. When you say things that are blatantly untrue, and that you know are blatantly untrue, I am going to hold you accountable no matter how boring you happen to find it.
Chris I do not post anything that is “blatantly untrue”.
You have been given more than enough space and opportunity to present information.
I am completely comfortable with letting our readers decide for themselves what is or is not true or factual.
Please try to remember that you are not my parent, my instructor, or my boss.
Tina, you said that Obama did not immediately release his birth certificate, and that he has spent a bunch of money to avoid releasing his birth certificate. Both of these statements fall under the category of “blatantly untrue.” I know I am not your boss, I am just a lowly commenter. You have no duty to me, but you do have a duty to the truth. I’m just trying to remind you of that.
Chris they do not fall under the catagory “blatantly untrue” except in the liberal mind.
The article at Outside the Beltway, link below, attempts to make your point and still fails miserably even with all the valid explanations attached.
Bunches of money were spent on legal fees, including fees related to the birth certificate matter. It is impossible to tell how much, according to the article, because the fees are not broken down. We do know, however, that he spent money in several courts rather than releasing his birth certificate…WHY? Why would anyone do that? None of your explanations, arguments, and accusations about crazy birthers answers that very simple question.
What would you do if you received a court order questioning whether or not you held a valid birth certificate? Wouldn’t you immediately call a press conference and show the certificate or if you didn’t have a copy wouldn’t you pay the few bucks to have one sent to you so you could hold a press conference and show it to the world? Isn’t it the least bit ODD that instead the president chose to fight requests in courts?
And your answer is, “no because I like the president and will defend him on this no matter how odd his behavior and no matter what those birther meanies say”.
Outstanding!
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/no-president-obama-hasnt-spent-millions-to-keep-his-birth-certificate-private/
You didn’t acknowledge the first blatant untruth I pointed out to you, and you sort of repeated it again when defending the second.
You claimed, “We do know, however, that he spent money in several courts rather than releasing his birth certificate.”
What you left out of this–and what you keep leaving out, over and over again, to the extent that I can only assume it is intentional–is that Obama had ALREADY released his legal birth certificate at this time.
This didn’t stop certain fringe idiots from falsely claiming that the COLB was not a legal birth certificate–a claim which you seem to be implying yourself every time you falsely claim that Obama didn’t immediately release his birth certificate, even though you know this isn’t true.
When you ask for a birth certificate in Hawaii, the COLB is what you get. It is not the state’s policy to release the long-form, original copy to anyone, even the person documented. The Health Department had to grant the president a special waiver in order to do this. You can see the proof of this by taking a look at the correspondence letters between the White House and the Director of Health:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-correspondence.pdf
You ask why Obama would spend money fighting birther cases in court before he applied for the waiver from the Department of Health? Because they were frivolous lawsuits! And clearly, they settled nothing in the minds of the moonbats who still think that the long-form was a forgery. Did releasing the long-form stop the lawsuits? No.
The only reason he finally got the long-form was because certain professional loudmouths such as Donald Trump and Sarah Palin decided that it might be a fun publicity stunt for them to adopt the cause of the fringe idiots in the birther community, and put the issue in the public spotlight. Sane people tried to explain that Obama had already provided legal proof, but you know the old saying: “A lie can travel halfway across the world while the truth is still putting its pants on.” It is way harder to combat misinformation than it is to spread it in the first place. So Obama decided to settle the issue by posting his long-form birth certificate for all to see. And that STILL isn’t good enough for you!
Your characterization of my position is a poor attempt at satire (not your fault, conservatives in general don’t seem to be very good at this). My position is the logically sound one. Yours requires that we believe in a massive conspiracy perpetrated by shadowy government agents who are both devious enough to forge a birth certificate, yet stupid enough to forge it so terribly that it can’t even fool the intellectual giants at World Net Daily. Mine only requires us to believe that you are misinformed.
I ask you, for the last time: Which is the more likely explanation?
Chris: “Obama had ALREADY released his legal birth certificate…”
No…he had released certificate of birth registration which is not the same document.
“This didn’t stop certain fringe idiots…blaqh, blah, blah”
Okay…we’re done.
Tina: “No…he had released certificate of birth registration which is not the same document.”
If you still believe this lie, then you are utterly committed to it, and there is no amount of evidence that could possibly persuade you to the truth. I have shown you, literally DOZENS of times, proof directly from the Hawaiian state government demonstrating that the COLB is THE legal birth certificate given to Hawaiian-born citizens. The correspondence letters I just linked to prove as much! For you to continue to have the audacity to deny this simple fact shows such a lack of disregard for the truth, such willful stupidity, that it must be seen to be believed.
You know, for someone who calls herself a Christian, you seem to not really care about that whole ninth commandment thing. You should really be ashamed of yourself.
Chris: “I have shown you, literally DOZENS of times, proof directly from the Hawaiian state government demonstrating that the COLB is THE legal birth certificate given to Hawaiian-born citizens.”
And I have attempted to educate you on numerous occassions that the document given to citizens of Hawaii represents their birth certificate but is not the official birth certificate. The official birth certificate is long form and contains much more information.
Your insane need to demonize anyone that would dare question or show curiosity about President Obamas secretive nature regarding his records overrides your ability to discern the distinction…BUT IT DOES EXIST!
“For you to continue to have the audacity to deny this simple fact shows such a lack of disregard for the truth, such willful stupidity, that it must be seen to be believed.”
And for you to insist that I deny a distinction, which I recognize even if you do do not, shows a lack of regard for individual liberty of thought to such a degree that I wouldn’t hesitate to call you a petty snivelling little tyrant.
My conscience is clear.
Tina: “And I have attempted to educate you on numerous occassions that the document given to citizens of Hawaii represents their birth certificate but is not the official birth certificate. The official birth certificate is long form and contains much more information.”
It’s almost endearing how you think you can just change the definitions of words whenever you’re losing an argument. You’re clearly not using the term “official” to mean anything other than “accepted by me, Tina Grazier.” Sure, by that definition, I guess the birth certificates of every Hawaiian-born person aren’t official. But it’s an unreasonable and arbitrary definition, so who cares?
The COLB is an official legal document. It does not contain as much information as the long-form, but that’s irrelevant; it contains ALL the information required by law to prove one’s birthplace and citizenship according to the requirements of the State Department. It is used interchangeably with the term “birth certificate” by the Hawaiian government. This is the only document Hawaiian-born people get when they ask for their birth certificates; they are not allowed access to the long-form without a special waiver, which doesn’t concern them, since there is no legal reason why they would ever need the long-form. The COLB is what people use to get their driver’s licenses, passports, etc.
If that’s not “official” enough for you, then you’re simply beyond reason.
Here’s a multiple-choice question: Who would be a better person to ask about what constitutes an “official birth certificate” for people born in Hawaii than Tina Grazier?
A. Hawaiian state officials
B. Hawaiian hospitals
C. Almost any one else
D. A, B, and C
E. Tina Grazier, for she knows all
The correct answer is D. So let’s ask some of those people.
Help me out here, Hawaiian Department of Health spokeswoman Janice Okubo!
“The state Department of Health no longer issues copies of paper birth certificates as was done in the past, said spokeswoman Janice Okubo.
The department only issues “certifications” of live births, and that is the “official birth certificate” issued by the state of Hawaii, she said.”
http://archives.starbulletin.com/content/20090606_kokua_line
But hey, she could be lying. Her name sounds kinda foreign to me!
Take it away, Queens Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii!
“Worksheet for Official Birth Certificate
Every patient who delivers a newborn, needs to complete the Official Birth Certificate form. This is the form that establishes the information for the official certification.”
http://www.queensmedicalcenter.net/component/content/article/29-services-info/115-the-birth-certificate-and-related-issues
Doctors? What do they know!
It’s just not logical for you to keep stretching and stretching, twisting definitions of words, making false claims, in order to find SOME way that birtherism is not a total sham, Tina. You’re embarrassing yourself. Just…stop. Or I’m going to start worrying about early senility on your behalf.
Which explains why the long form (fake or genuine) was eventually released.
Chris get over yourself.
“Which explains why the long form (fake or genuine) was eventually released.”
This is a non-sequiter. It doesn’t address anything I said, and I am legitimately confused by what you’re getting at with this sentence.
One more thing before I call it a night, Tina.
I looked back over the last few comments, and found that you’re engaging in the same kind of back-tracking, goal-post moving and denial that has come to characterize your arguments as of late.
In the span of those few comments, you jumped around from premise to premise, often contradicting yourself but never acknowledging the contradictions.
You moved from 1) Obama did not present a birth certificate to 2) Obama did present a birth certificate but it wasn’t a “valid” one to 3) Obama didn’t present a “legal” birth certificate to 4) Obama has presented a legal birth certificate but not an “official” birth certificate, whatever that means.
Your argument is incoherent and seems to change when convenient. It’s always frustrating to argue with people who do this, but the weird thing in this case is that I’m not even sure you notice you’re doing it. You seem to see no inconsistency between saying that Obama has not provided a birth certificate in one comment and then admitting he has in the next, or in denying that Obama has presented a legal birth certificate one comment and then conceding that he has in the next. All along you insist that you have made no error and you have not lied. You also don’t seem to have a good grasp on what the terms “valid,” “legal,” or “official” mean.
Maybe you didn’t notice that you were doing this before. But now that I’ve pointed this problem out to you, can you maybe do some introspection and consider how well you arguments hold up, when the premises they are based on are constantly bouncing around like pinballs, often getting dropped and replaced without warning?
It’s enough to make me genuinely worried that you’re not seeing this. Seriously, Tina, is everything OK?
Chris I have not changed, moved goal posts, or twisted anything. You are twirling all on your own. There are two pieces of paper…two documents…they are not the same. I have attemprted to differentiate between them, that is all. I don’t think you realize that you are fighting with yourself, imputing attitudes and thoughts to me that I do not hold and then arguing against them. I am left feeling like I’ve been beaten to a pulp by an angry, frustrated zealot just for pointing out an oddity. I find the issue interesting but from a far off place. I have not chosen to take a position one way or the other. I do not seek out new information. If it falls in my lap I take notice but it doesn’t consume me. You have been treating me like it does…I don’t appreciate it.
If being curious about the oddities of this issue makes me senile in your mind so be it. I told you I am done arguing points, not because I’m “losing the argument” as you claim, but because we have been over this a million times (I have indulged your passion) and I simply don’t agree that all of the questions have been answered. But, in terms of importance to me? Pretty darn close to zip!
You are obviously very passionate about this and need to convince someone that you are right…go find someone who cares as passionately as you do and argue with them…it will be much more satisfying for you.
Thank you for your concern for my health and well being…not so much for your smarmy self-righteous evaluation of my mental capacity prior to that concern 😉
Tina: “Chris I have not changed, moved goal posts, or twisted anything…There are two pieces of paper…two documents…they are not the same. I have attemprted to differentiate between them, that is all.”
You’re moving the goalposts again, changing your argument so that it’s impossible for you to be wrong. If your only argument was that the two documents are “not the same,” well then of course you would be right. I’ve never said they’re exactly the same.
But your actual argument was never that general, and it’s absurd of you to pretend it was, when anyone can go back and read the actual words you wrote. You’ve listed what you see as specific differences between the two documents. You originally claimed that only one of them is a birth certificate, and the other one isn’t. Later, without retracting the first claim, you said that they are both birth certificates, but only one is “valid,” “legal,” and “official.” I have shown you unassailable proof from the state of Hawaii showing that neither of these two claims are true. The COLB is, like the long-form certificate, a valid, legal, and official birth certificate.
The rational thing to do would be to admit you are wrong. Instead you’ve taken the most intellectually dishonest an cowardly route possible to avoid doing so. Yes, the two documents are different; but they are not different in any of the ways you’ve claimed throughout this discussion, as the evidence I’ve shown you conclusively proves. And if you can’t admit that, then you’re not being honest at all.
“I do not seek out new information. If it falls in my lap I take notice”
You have only taken notice when “new information” supports the birther position. All of the evidence I have shown you from the State of Hawaii, from hospitals in Hawaii, from the State Department…you’ve ignored it all. This makes your claim that you have “not taken a position” kind of hard to take seriously. You give way more credibility to the (mis)information put out by the birthers then you do to the actual facts put out by those of us in the reality-based community. I believe you do so only because you think it could hurt this president. When you entertain the conspiracy theories of the birthers, even for a moment, you are putting stock in the rantings and ravings of the tin-foil hat crowd. Lending credibility to liars is in itself a form of bearing false witness, Tina. If you are really concerned with the truth, you’ll look at the facts and realize that what you’re doing is wrong.
Chris: “The rational thing to do would be to admit you are wrong. Instead you’ve taken the most intellectually dishonest an cowardly route possible to avoid doing so.”
So now I am senile, intellectually dishonest, cowardly and wrong just for daring to question and notice oddities about this issue…and…for NOT deciding with an appropriate measure of fierce finality that Obama has been completely above board and that the document in question (the long form) IS NOT A FAKE.
“All of the evidence I have shown you from the State of Hawaii, from hospitals in Hawaii, from the State Department…you’ve ignored it all.”
I have not dismissed it. It is there with all of the information that suggests it could be a fake. I have all of it and have not decided as you have.
How would anyone like me know except through a leap of faith or trust? I have not seen it and I have no way of knowing as an absolute certainty that it is a fake or authentic.
From my perspective your blind trust of the man that has too many secrets is both foolish and unwise, but I waste my time.
You have made yourself quite clear; I know where I stand.
It’s been real, Chris.
“So now I am senile, intellectually dishonest, cowardly and wrong just for daring to question and notice oddities about this issue…”
No. That is not why. I just friggin’ explained to you why.
I never said that you were wrong for “noticing oddities.” I did point out that many of the specific oddities you pointed out are not actually oddities at all. I gave you logical explanations for each of them, and showed you proof from several sources that support these logical explanations. A rational person would say, “Thanks for clearing that up.” Or, if they had reason not to believe that these sources of proof were legitimate (for who knows what reason), a rational person would offer counter-evidence. You haven’t done either; you just refused to address the evidence I presented in order to play bully victim.
You haven’t addressed the fact that, contrary to your claims, the COLB is a valid, legal, official birth certificate according to the State of Hawaii.
Please address this, Tina.
You’re trying to make me sound unreasonable for picking on you just because you have “questions,” and haven’t made up your mind yet. But that’s not what I’ve done. I’ve proven that specific statements you’ve made about this issue have been 100% wrong. Sorry, but it is cowardly and dishonest of you to continue ignore that, and try to change the debate into something it’s not.
“I have not dismissed it. It is there with all of the information that suggests it could be a fake. I have all of it and have not decided as you have.”
So you think information from World Net Daily about what constitutes an official Hawaiian birth certificate is just as valid as information from the State of Hawaii, and Hawaiian hospitals on the same issue? Come on, Tina, that’s not reasonable. There is no equivalence between the proof I’ve presented and the misinformation put out by the tabloid rags and scam artists you’ve cited.
“How would anyone like me know except through a leap of faith or trust?”
Oh, geez. Use the brain God gave you. It isn’t impossible for a smart person to determine what constitutes a credible source of information and what doesn’t. There is no leap of faith required to accept the statements of several Hawaiian officials when they said that the COLB was Barack Obama’s legal, valid and official birth certificate. There’s no reason not to believe them!
On the contrary, it requires several leaps of logic to believe the crazy conspiracy theories about the birth certificate have any legitimacy at all.