Posted by Tina
This is shaping up to be quite an explosive week in Washington as the House of Representatives continues in it’s probe to get to the bottom of the Fast and Furious scandal. Representative Trey Gowdy of South Carolina was forceful in his accounting of events leading up to this day as he demanded answers for the American people from Attorney General Eric Holder:
The White House has invoked Executive Privilege causing one expert to say that the President is on “shaky ground”. Others have noted the hypocrisy recalling President Obama’s statements when he was a Senator regarding the Bush administration and executive privilege:
“There’s been a tendency, on the part of this administration, to try to hide behind executive privilege every time there’s something a little shaky that’s taking place,” Mr. Obama told CNN’s Larry King. “I think the administration would be best served by coming clean on this. There doesn’t seem to be any national security issues involved.”
He added, “There doesn’t seem to be any justification for not offering up some clear, plausible rationale for why these U.S. attorneys were targeted when by all assessments they were doing an outstanding job. I think the American people deserve to know what was going on there.”
Another story appeared in The Houston Chronicle today that hasn’t been mentioned lately but is said to be related. Two agents, Jaime Zapata and Victor Avila were attacked and forced off the highway by cartel thugs in Mexico back in 2011. Agent Zapata was murdered and now his family has filed a wrongful death suit against the government:
The complaint alleges the agents should not have been assigned to drive through a dangerous area of Mexico to transport “sensitive equipment.” It also claims the U.S. government allowed the guns used in the attack to be smuggled into Mexico after purchase by straw buyers in Texas.
Zapata’s family alleges that a program similar to “Operation Fast and Furious,” in which ATF agents in Arizona allowed guns into Mexico, made it possible for guns purchased in the Dallas area and in Beaumont to fall into the hands of Mexican gang members and to be used against the ICE agents.
This is a very serious matter and the people deserve to know whether this administration acted wrongfully; let the transparency begin.
If EP can only be used regarding direct activity by the Prez, isn’t Holder admitting that involvement by asking for EP?
And isn’t the Prez admitting to involvement previously denied by invoking EP?
Roger Clemens was tried twice for lying to Congress. Shouldn’t the law be applied equally for the AG when he lies under oath?
This is worse that Watergate because this time people died because of incompetency at the highest levels and any politician who support the supression of the F&F documents needs to be removed come November.
And it was all done in hopes of weakening the American peoples faith in the 2nd amendment. I can’t wait to see how Obama spins this so he doesn’t look like the guy who murdered at least one American and several thousand Mexicans.
We had Nixon and Watergate and that was a pathetic mess. We can always count on the Left to take pathetic to a whole new dimension.
What we are seeing are the actions of a guy who knows he is a beaten. Now it is all about scorched earth. He is going to hand President Romney a giant $hit sandwich. Not only are we financially screwed but we are going to find ourselves in very real shooting wars with half the world and a Carter like military to fight them with.
Obama has screwed the American people in every way and on every front and it is all by design.
After watching most of the hearing last night on CSPAN it is very clear there is a cover-up going on.
The DOJ is claiming Fast and Furious took place in Arizona without ANY knowledge in Washington. How then can Obama claim Executive Privilege to protect his staff at the WH from disclosing documents linked to Holder? Doesnt make sense.
The folks at Harvard should be asking themselves “How the heck did this guy pass any law classes?”
The Most Interesting Man in the World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Aqxl9qiFonc
Peggy, I think you meant to say the most arrogant man in the world. lol
Yup, sure did. My error. Copied it from the link instead of typing it.
Well, hardly explosive. Invoking “executive privilege” was a mistake. Now we know there are juicy bits to be had. But in the great cosmic dismay that is the OA (from the progressive viewpoint), what difference do it make?
It is just, yet, another ill-conceived, Bush-era, bit of brilliance the OA hadn’t the balls to scuttle straight off.
Princess Nancy says this is all about voter suppression. I think she confused Fast and Furious with some of Obama’s other illegal activities. Who can blame her for mixing them up?
Maybe she is onto something here. With Obama giving guns to the Mexican drug cartels and then those guys murder thousands of Mexicans and few Americans…. hmmm ok I got nothing.
“Critical thinking” and “intellectual curiosity” are words liberals love to toss around, I have two for them, Occam’s razor.
There seems to be the impression here that executive privilege can only be used to specifically shield the president. This is false. Executive privilege can and has been used as a defense for anyone in the executive branch. For instance, Bush used executive privilege in order to deny access to Justice Department memos that he was not directly involved in, just as Obama is doing now. So this doesn’t prove that Obama was directly involved.
That said, there’s no way of knowing what’s on those documents if we can’t see them. Obviously, there’s something on them that the government doesn’t want us to see. The only two reasons for that would be a) national security or b) personal embarrassment. Unfortunately, we may never know which one it is. In general I am always for greater transparency, and on that level Obama has been a total failure. I would very much like to see these documents. At the very least, we are owed an explanation as to why they are being hidden from view.
Toby, you really think the conspiracy theory that Operation Fast and Furious was designed to make people afraid of guns in order to undermine the second amendment makes sense under Occam’s Razor? That’s the simplest explanation to you?
Libby: “It is just, yet, another ill-conceived, Bush-era, bit of brilliance the OA hadn’t the balls to scuttle straight off.”
BUSH DID IT! Isn’t that always the excuse!!
NO Bush did not do this. The Bush operation was a sting operation to capture and prosecute men running guns.
The O mans crew thought it would be fun to get guns run into the hands of cartels so they could make a gun rights issue out of it. The STUPIDITY of that kind of political thinking, not to mention the criminal malfeasance, is absolutely NOTHING like the Bush program to capture the guilty.
Tina: “The O mans crew thought it would be fun to get guns run into the hands of cartels so they could make a gun rights issue out of it.”
There is ZERO evidence that this has anything to do with the “gun rights issue.” As of now, this is nothing but a crazy conspiracy theory, which seems to have originated from a conservative blogger who once advocated throwing bricks through the windows of Democrats’ offices. You lower yourself and the quality of this website by repeating this here as if it were fact.
Libby, This Wikipedia account will help you understand that Bush couldnt be responsible for F&F since it wasnt started until 2009.
Wide Receiver (2006-2007) was done during Bushs term. F&F is all Obamas.
Full Article here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious
20092011: Operation Fast and Furious:
On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. Participating in the meeting were Deputy Attorney General David W. Ogden, Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, ATF Director Kenneth E. Melson, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Michele Leonhart, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Robert Mueller and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states. They decided on a strategy to identify and eliminate entire arms trafficking networks rather than low-level buyers.[3][27][28] Those at the meeting did not suggest using the “gunwalking” tactic, but ATF supervisors would soon use it in an attempt to achieve the desired goals.[29] The effort, beginning in November, would come to be called Operation Fast and Furious for the successful film franchise, because some of the suspects under investigation operated out of an auto repair store and street raced.[3]
The strategy of targeting high-level individuals, which was already ATF policy, would be implemented by Bill Newell, special agent in charge of ATF’s Phoenix field division. In order to accomplish it, the office decided to use “gunwalking” as laid out in a January 2010 briefing paper. This was said to be allowed under ATF regulations and given legal backing by U.S. Attorney for the District of Arizona Dennis K. Burke. It was additionally approved and funded by a Justice Department task force.[3] However, long-standing DOJ and ATF policy has required arms shipments to be intercepted.[4][5]
Chris, I believe the reason for F&F was to undermine the 2nd amendment. I further believe Obama and Holder had/have their hands all over it from day one. I believe Obama and Holder were counting on major acts of violence and the F&F guns would conveniently be the weapons used. I will draw the line at saying Obama and Holder wanted Americans killed in his foolish endeavor. I seriously despise Obama but I hold out hope that he wouldn’t go that far. I believe the memos now being covered up would connect the dots and prove them guilty.
My comment about Occam’s Razor was more about why Obama used EP but it works for the whole thing.
Chris, I cant speak for you but if I were accused of criminal acts and had memos that prove my innocence, I for one would have copies released to every media outlet in the Country. I would not make myself look more guilty and hide the memos.
Anyway that is what I believe and it seems pretty simple. What complicated it was the light of day.
A friend of mine told me to check out what Rush had to say on the F&F story on Thursday’s show. I wish I had heard it, bet it was great. Here is the transcript of what he said. I consider it a win if my opinion of something is inline with what Rush thinks. I will take that any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/06/20/the_purpose_of_fast_and_furious
I wish I had know about the meeting between Obama and Calderon, that is good stuff.
While not yet official, Holder is in contempt of Congress. Obama is also in contempt. The entire Obama administration is contemptible.
It remains to be seen whether transparency will win over cover up or not. My bet is that the corruption of the Obama administration will prevail until Barack is removed from office, one way or another.
Thank you Darrell Issa. Please continue to move forward and make it so. Contempt at this level of government should be recognized officially and duly voted on and passed.
Chris: “There is ZERO evidence that this has anything to do with the “gun rights issue.”
There is enough evidence to warrant an investigation and this hearing should be taken very seriously. Our media has given it scant attention which should alarm you, but of course it doesn’t. (Compare media investigation and reporting on the Valerie Plame story for reference).
I want our media to be straight with the American people and investigate all issues where there is evidence of wrongdoing…it is their job! Since they won’t there are others who are stepping into that void and doing the job that our journalists will not do.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/06/obama-knew-about-gun-walking-program-in-2009-then-used-fast-furious-to-make-case-for-gun-regulations-video/
A little research shows that that 90% claim made by Obama is not truthful (Also explains the difference between the Bush program and the Obama program):
http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/detail/mexicos-federal-law-of-firearms-and-explosives
A Spectator article that references Katie Pavlichs book:
Investigative report 12-07-11 by Sharyl Attkisson of CBS:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/
More here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-20039031.html
http://blog.heritage.org/2012/06/21/morning-bell-president-obamas-fast-and-furious-scandal-grows/
Eric Holder 1995 position on gun control
http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/18/holder-in-1995-really-brainwash-people-to-be-anti-gun/
April 2009
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-04-16/politics/obama.latin.america_1_assault-weapons-drug-violence-illegal-immigrants?_s=PM:POLITICS
http://articles.cnn.com/keyword/gun-laws
Democrat: Controversial ATF program shows need for tougher gun laws
As someone said if our government (And our media) has time to investigate and hold endless hearings on baseball players’ use of steroids they certainly should have time for this.
Hardly the last word, but still, per Wiki:
“The ATF began Project Gunrunner as a pilot project in Laredo, Texas, in 2005 and expanded it as a national initiative in 2006. Project Gunrunner is also part of the Department of Justices broader Southwest Border Initiative, which seeks to reduce cross-border drug and firearms trafficking and the high level of violence associated with these activities on both sides of the border.”
That is how I remember it too. But I’m sure it would pain you too much to do likewise.
a la the Bay of Pigs???
It makes sense that this would be another of his fiascoes. can you provide any proof?
Tina, great job, well done! No point in arguing with Libby or Q/Q/Q/WTF or whatever it is calling itself today. They are fools and hypocrites. To prove it, just ask yourself the standard question. How would they be reacting if Obama were a republican? It works every time.
http://www.fed-soc.org/publications/detail/mexicos-federal-law-of-firearms-and-explosives
Andrew McCarthy at National Review explains how Democrats attempt to say the program under Bush is the same as F&F under Obama and why they are lying.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/282606/fast-furious-was-bushs-fault-andrew-c-mccarthy#
Toby thanks for the support; I do appreciate it very much.
I agree with you about the aforementioned motley crew…it is my job to be the squeaky wheel, however, so I will roll on as usual!
They are asking questions? Oh my God!
NO QUESTIONS!!!!!!
JUST BELIEVE!!!!!!!!!!
And THIS clown is running for council? Take a course in elementary logic first, or you will get creamed in any debate or forum you enter.
“I want our media to be straight with the American people and investigate all issues where there is evidence of wrongdoing…it is their job! Since they won’t there are others who are stepping into that void and doing the job that our journalists will not do.”
Tina, it is nothing short of an epic fail that you would immediately follow up on this paragraph by linking to, of all the cesspools in all the Interwebs, Jim Hoft’s Gateway Pundit. Hoft is caught in a lie nearly every day he posts something. To get a grasp on how incorrigibly uninformed Hoft is, consider an article he posted Friday, wherein he complained that Michelle Obama was leading the official American delegation to the 2012 Olympics. Hoft’s hyperbolic response:
“Oh good grief!
Theyre everywhere.
Now theyre hijacking the Olympics.”
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/06/oh-good-grief-michelle-obama-will-lead-us-delegation-at-opening-ceremony-of-london-olympics/
Of course, if Hoft had done his research (spoiler alert: he never will!), he would have found out that this is not a “hijacking” at all, as both Laura Bush and Hilary Clinton did the same exact thing when they served as first ladies. Some commenters pointed this out to Hoft, but not until many of them joined Hoft’s manufactured outrage, and started a pattern of calling Michelle Obama a Wookie. All class, these guys.
This is hardly the worst article Hoft has ever posted. My two favorite Gateway Pundit headlines:
“It Begins…Obama Gives Major Swath of of Arizona Back to Mexico (Video)”
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2010/06/obama-gives-major-strip-of-arizona-back-to-mexico-video/
“Obama’s Latest Assault on Freedom–New Regulations Will Ban Sports Fishing”
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2010/03/obamas-latest-assault-on-freedom-new-regulations-will-ban-sport-fishing/
Now you may be asking, why weren’t these stories reported in the mainstream media? Why didn’t our journalists inform us of these assaults to our freedom?
The answer is because they never happened. They were made-up conspiracy theories with no evidence behind them whatsoever. Just like the insane conspiracy theory that Obama planned Fast and Furious in order to curtail the second amendment. Obama hasn’t made a single move against the second amendment! But people like Jim Hoft want to believe these things, because his hatred for the president is so intense that it completely overrides his critical thinking skills, if he has any. So he reported these things, and stirred up a lot of anger among his right-wing followers. Many of the comments on the Arizona article are disturbing in their calls for violence:
“Unreal.
Send in the Army NOW.”
“I know of a few high powered sniper rifles that would blast them back over to Mexico and add a thermal scope and put it in the hands of a good shooter and spotter and you have border security. Maybe its time to dig a deep trench to dump them in since the government isnt going to help lend a hand and we are being invaded! The libs can talk about giving them people citizenship but I dont see them living closer to the border where this is happening.”
“CALL OUT THE NATIONAL GUARD IMMEDIATELY!”
“Guns are not for decoration. The Second Amendment was written for a good reason.”
“If Obama cannot control the border, we should protect it with mine fields. They are cheap, effective and completely defensive. No one gets killed or hurt unless they violate our border.”
“Mr. Obama your the traitor and must go. Feet first or head first, your choice. powder is dry”
“This is insane!! OJackass has officially surrendered American sovereigntynever before in our history has this happened!!
Where is the outrage in America?!? Where is the call to arms?!?!”
“We the people can solve our border problems. We are armed and we are aware! Just let us do what needs to be done.
Someone mentioned napalm, good idea! Napalm, claymores, or just a free fire zone with automatic weapons and ammo provided. Target practice for all Americans. I wouldnt even be against having to pay for my own ammo. 50 points for a kill and 100 points for a serious wound. That would require good shooting and would be rewarded. Let Calderon figure out what to do with the wounded and the dead.”
“When does the revolution begin? Lock & Load.”
Now, usually I wouldn’t hold a blogger accountable for the comments on his blog. But these types of comments are so extraordinarily common on Hoft’s blog, that there’s no way he isn’t aware of them. Hoft’s readers are calling for violent rebellion over something that NEVER HAPPENED. And instead of making it clear to his readers that threats of violence are not acceptable on his site, what does Hoft do? He continues to inflame his already volatile and uninformed readers by telling them more sh#t that never happened. He continues to misinform them in order to make them as angry as possible.
THAT is his job. THAT is the kind of person you’re claiming is just “doing the job our journalists will not do.” Thank God they won’t! Our country would be even more of a mess if actual journalists were as unprofessional, unethical and stupid as Jim Hoft. It is bad enough that he has the amount of influence he does in the conservative blogosphere. It makes me sick that otherwise intelligent people such as yourself are getting your information from such a deranged liar.
Nothing else you posted provides evidence that Obama planned this operation in order to curtail the second amendment. I do want this issue investigated and if any wrongdoing was done, people should be held accountable. But when you put your trust in serial liars and point to people like Jim Hoft as examples of what journalists should be doing, you lose all credibility, and people stop listening to you. This is a serious issue and needs to be responsibly investigated. People like Jim Hoft simply pollute the process with lies and get in the way of finding the truth.
Chris: “…it is nothing short of an epic fail that you would immediately follow up on this paragraph by linking to, of all the cesspools in all the Interwebs, Jim Hoft’s Gateway Pundit…”
Chris as long as you insist on referring to people you disagree with as racists, extremists, or inhabitants of a “cesspool” who “pollute the process” I see no reason to even bother reading what you have to say. Disagree with his opinions all you want. Insist that the facts presented are incorrect and explain why you think so. Fail to applaud or appreciate (understandably) whatever cynical or down and dirty humor which may also accompany his postings but…enough is enough!
You support and defend a man who in meetings with constituents calls for bringing a gun if the “enemy” bring a knife. This man is no lowly reporter but the leader of our nation! You support a party that has no problem affiliating with union members who go to the homes of corporate heads and bankers assuming a threatening display of power without consideration for the children inside. You support and defend a party that encourages voter fraud and intimidation at voter polls. You support a party that encourages and defends abortion even in underage girls. There’s a lot more I could reference…I won’t bother. Sorry, but your sense of moral superiority fails to persuade.
Tina: “Chris as long as you insist on referring to people you disagree with as racists, extremists, or inhabitants of a “cesspool” who “pollute the process””
I don’t refer to people as any of those things because they “disagree” with me. I refer to people that way when they are proven liars. You consistently miss the moral difference.
So when people on the left lie you would refer to them as racists? As liars? As inhabitants of cesspools? I don’t think so. I think you may object to something the left writes but your tone would be much less inflammatory and often explanatory or apologetic.
We all get to wade through the muddy waters of opinion journalism and unfortunately often the words of those charged with simple reporting. Get over it Chris. I also referenced CBS News, Heritage, CNN, and others in my comments. I notice you didn’t take on any of the facts written in these publications but instead chose to once again take me on as the TARGET of your rebuttal.
“So when people on the left lie you would refer to them as racists?”
I usually don’t refer to anyone by defining them as “racists,” whether they are conservative or liberal. I prefer to criticize the content of actions and words rather than give that label to someone, because racism is pervasive in society and most people have made a racist joke or two in their lifetime. I often point out when Rush Limbaugh uses racist rhetoric, but I do not call him a racist. I have criticized Ann Coulter with the same language. These people have a long pattern of making racist statements in public and then refusing to apologize for them, so I think my critiques of them are fair.
I can’t recall an instance of you ever giving me reason to criticize a prominent liberal for using racist rhetoric, except for one instance where you quoted Sandra Bernhardt as making a horrendous joke about Sarah Palin that involved perpetuating disgusting stereotypes about black people. That was pretty damned racist of her, and I said so at the time. But I don’t think I called her racist, because I try to avoid labeling people that way.
“As liars?”
If someone has a serious pattern of lying, then I do label them a liar, regardless of their political affiliation.
“As inhabitants of cesspools? I don’t think so. I think you may object to something the left writes but your tone would be much less inflammatory and often explanatory or apologetic.”
If anyone on the left runs a blog comparable to Jim Hoft’s, then let me know. Show me the half-dozen comments from liberals advocating violence because of something that never happened on, say, Media Matters, and I’ll call it a cesspool. But, as vacuous as I often find the comments on Media Matters, I don’t think you can find that.
I did address your other links, but only to say that none of them supported the conspiracy theory you promoted. I’m not going to go through each one and show you how each one failed to provide direct evidence that Obama wanted people to be murdered from gun violence so that he could ban guns. I feel dumber for even justifying such a theory with a response.
Chris, lets pretend nothing on the subject of F&F has been said here. Please tell me your take on it. Maybe I am completely off target, who knows maybe you can sway my thinking. Off the top of your head give me your opinion of why Obama would take the actions he has taken.
Oh and for the record, I have no idea who that Hoft person is. I have to my knowledge never knowingly read anything of his. I am not accusing you of saying I did, I am just making that point clear.