Posted by Tina
The President is out on the campaign trail today warning the people in candy coated tones that if the Republicans don’t do what he wants the middle class won’t be able to afford diapers.
President Obama the leader of our nation, I repeat, THE LEADER OF OUR NATION, yet he HAS NOT made a definitive proposal for avoiding the fiscal cliff. As is his usual mode of operation he sits out and expects others to come up with solutions.
What a wimpy guy! He won the election and promptly runs for the closet! His vision of the presidency is all show and today he took it on the road.
His so called wealth tax will bring in $80 billion dollars. A lot of money for most of us. There’s only one problem. The government needs much more than that just to pay interest on our debt (at least $200 billion).
Obama’s one big (old) idea is purely political. He knows it won’t make a dent in the fiscal problems that plague our nation. He is not a serious person. He is a celebrity who enjoys playing fast and loose with other people’s money. He has no idea how to fix the problem and no intention of learning. Don’t bother him with details just show him the money!
Our nation is in decline. If you have any interest at all in knowing more than whether the Republicans will make it hard for you to buy diapers you can start with a few important facts that are, apparently, of no concern to the BIG SENDER.
Buffet said over the week end that the wealth tax would make the middle class feel good. He has to be the most out of touch guy in the world. He believes people like him should be taxed at a higher rate, and that’s fine, but he doesn’t consider how middle class business owners will be affected.
There are nearly 100, 000 small businesses that will be harmed by the Presidents proposal. Those business owners create jobs and will be hurt substantially by this tax.
Oh well, as long as people can buy diapers, we’re good!
“There are nearly 100, 000 small businesses that will be harmed by the Presidents proposal.”
Citation needed.
Actually the figure I found earlier is short! Here’s more information:
http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/04/smallbusiness/obama-tax-employers/index.html
I’m running short on time, but I thought some of the commenters to that article made some excellent points. I’m going to copy and paste some of those comments and see what you think of them:
keha: ” ‘To business owners, higher tax bills would restrict their ability to grow and hire workers.’ Wrong!
‘If next year proves profitable enough, he plans to finally get around to hiring a project manager and a marketer. However, higher taxes would make him rethink those plans.’ Wrong again!!
Come on. The income tax rate is after business deductions – meaning, after schedule C so it only effects their personal income. I wonder if the author has ever filed business taxes because the two statements above make no sense.
Higher income taxes mean owners will have less discretionary income, not less money for their business. Any business owner that wants to spend $5000 on their business knows that $5000 will be deducted from the profit and not be subject to income tax. On the other hand, not spending that $5000 means taxable income in the owner’s pocket – it will be 3% less which isn’t much.”
Russell Barnett: “Here’s how it works: only PROFIT is taxed. If hiring an employee will create additional profit in the business why would the owner decide not to hire someone just because that ADDITIONAL PROFIT might be taxed at 39% instead of 35%? By my math, that still puts the owner ahead of the game by 61% of the additional profit. If the additional employee isn’t going to create additional profit, then why would the owner hire them in the first place?
I really doubt these “rich small business owners” became that way by being hilariously inept at math and simple business concepts like “doing things that are profitable”.”
Cataccord: “Consider also that employee wages are deducted from profits before taxes are calculated, so adding employees would lower their tax burden. This whole lower taxes to increase hiring is just a red herring designed to line the pockets of corporate executives.”
Chris: “Come on. The income tax rate is after business deductions – meaning, after schedule C so it only effects their personal income. I wonder if the author has ever filed business taxes because the two statements above make no sense.”
How often have you filed business taxes, planned for the future of your business, made payroll?
Your comment, “It only effects their personal income” is a stupid remark.
You think every year that business person just takes that money and buys himself a new ‘boat. What an a*#h*%#!
Business people have commitments. I’m sure you do. You have arranged your life based in part on those commitments. Businesses risk every time they purchase new inventory, parts, equipment, supplies. They are betting on a projected outcome in the future based on a guesstimate. They don’t know what next years sales will be, OR HOW MUCH CASH THEY WILL NEED. Their discretionary income (the thing that makes you believe they are “rich” is their cushion or “loan” for the future!
How cavalier you are with other peoples money…and how eager you are to take it from them based on ZERO experience of what it is to be a business owner!
“If hiring an employee will create additional profit in the business why would the owner decide not to hire someone just because that ADDITIONAL PROFIT might be taxed at 39% instead of 35%? By my math…blah blah”
A. Hiring a new employee is first a way to take pressure off the owner who is probably working a lot of hours at no extra pay. It is NOT a guarantee of better sales!!!!!!
B. This “math” is an on paper calculation that ignores operations in the real world. It’s the kind of thing a person does when he has absolutely zero business experience. It is why he is easily duped into waging class warfare against business people…and his own interests!
If you want a good example take a look at our government. Every year they are required to write a budget (although the democrats in the Senate have failed to meet that legal obligation in the last three years!)…and almost every single year they have spent more than they projected. Our $16 trillion in debt has been a result of denial about real world outcomes. (And the fact that government can just print money or kick the problem down the road. (The truth is the government is bankrupt!)
On balance business people do a MUCH BETTER job at managing money for their business. When government jerks them around it’s more difficult and government has been jerking them around for three years or more. Constant changes in the tax code and regulation make planning very difficult. CERTAINTY is what business people need most so they can plan. After several years of a lousy economy and threats of new taxes and regulation YOU BET the business community is against more pressure on their ability to function.
Taxing these businesses at a higher rate will not help the economic situation. As I pointed out this tax (on the rich) will not bring in enough revenue to run the government for more than a few days. It is a POLITICAL move! It is more class warfare! The government under President Obama is oppressing the source of its revenue…stupid is too kind a word to describe this.
“…adding employees would lower their tax burden. This whole lower taxes to increase hiring is just a red herring designed to line the pockets of corporate executives.”
More colossal stupidity! And more class warfare.
I say stupidity because it has been impossible to educate those who, lacking personal experience, have been brainwashed into thinking every businessman has gained unfairly and stolen from others. The class warfare propaganda machine has dumbed down a large segment of the population to think of all business people as “the rich” when the large majority of them are just working people like everyone else but with a much bigger burden in terms of responsibility…to employees, customers, vendors and yes, government (bi-weekly or monthly and yearly wage payments and reports, sales tax reports, tax returns to state and fed).
I’ll end by cut and pasting, again, from the article in my comment above:
Will higher taxes help or hinder these employers? You can’t figure it out with one simple math equation. It takes a broader understanding of how business works.
Tina: “How often have you filed business taxes, planned for the future of your business, made payroll?”
I’ve never run a business, therefore I am not entitled to an opinion or to any criticism of business owners.
But business owners such as Mitt Romney are still entitled to pass judgment on the poor and act as if they know how to manage our lives better than we could, since we’re all just so irresponsible.
Your cries of “class warfare!” aren’t that compelling to someone on this side of it, Tina. If there were a “war” going on, the rich would clearly be winning it.
“You think every year that business person just takes that money and buys himself a new ‘boat.”
I never said or implied anything of the sort, nor did any of the comments I quoted.
“More colossal stupidity! And more class warfare.”
You didn’t address the argument. Was the commenter correct when he said adding employees lowers the tax burden?
“The class warfare propaganda machine has dumbed down a large segment of the population to think of all business people as “the rich” when the large majority of them are just working people like everyone else but with a much bigger burden in terms of responsibility…to employees, customers, vendors and yes, government (bi-weekly or monthly and yearly wage payments and reports, sales tax reports, tax returns to state and fed).”
Yes…and that large majority you speak of is not actually having its taxes raised, so that has nothing to do with the argument.
“I’ll end by cut and pasting, again, from the article in my comment above:
Those small businesses also employ an estimated 60 million Americans — about half of all private sector employees.
Will higher taxes help or hinder these employers?”
The question is irrelevant, because 60 million is the number of all small business employees, not those who work for the 3% of small busines owners who make over $250,000 a year. I had to Google that because the CNN Money article you cited is (intentionally?) worded in a confusing way, constantly switching between talk of all small businesses and the top 3% without making it clear which they’re referring to in any given sentence.
So, no, higher taxes would not help most small business employers. That’s why Obama has lowered their taxes.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/sep/07/barack-obama/barack-obama-said-hes-cut-taxes-middle-class-famil/
“blah blah blah…I never said or implied anything of the sort, nor did any of the comments I quoted.”
Oh but you did and that is the point. I’m not being nasty here Chris. The point is that because you have no experience you have no way of processing the information I give you. The position that all people making $250K are wealthy only makes sense to you from the context of your life experience. You can’t relate to someone who makes $250K (according to his tax return) but in terms of what he can actually allow himself to live on he only gets $50K a year. The rest is his cash flow for the coming years expenses. I can’t give you the experience and you refuse to consider that a government that has to resort to calling people like that wealthy are not only out of touch but tremendously irresponsible…they have spent too much and promised things they cannot deliver.
“Was the commenter correct when he said adding employees lowers the tax burden?”
It would add to the amount that could be deducted BUT the expense to hire is still greater for the employer so it is a stupid argument! Hiring does not guarantee greater sales. Employser hire when they have more work…the commenter gets the cart before the horse!
“Yes…and that large majority you speak of is not actually having its taxes raised…”
I guess the one million business owners, and the people they employ, that will be affected are just so much trash to you? The President has offered no ideas or plans to reign in spending. He has hinted that he wants to spend more. Do you really believe that taxing the rich will work forever? Do you really believe that we can just keep spending more without ruining the source of all wealth and income? And what about prices for the goods we buy…your future purchasing power? Do you think that bigger government budgets will help any American, including the poor in the long run? Do you care about your own future?
Out of time will continue later.
Tina: “The position that all people making $250K are wealthy only makes sense to you from the context of your life experience.”
No, it’s simple math. If you make more than 98% of the country, you are wealthy. It is absurd to claim otherwise.
“It would add to the amount that could be deducted BUT the expense to hire is still greater for the employer so it is a stupid argument! Hiring does not guarantee greater sales. Employser hire when they have more work…the commenter gets the cart before the horse!”
What small businesses say they need most right now is demand. They aren’t seeing a whole lot of demand because the average American isn’t spending money. Bringing jobs home from overseas and raising wages would increase consumer demand.
“I guess the one million business owners, and the people they employ, that will be affected are just so much trash to you?”
I have not treated anyone like garbage. But again: we are talking about the richest 2% of small business owners. They can handle it.
“Do you really believe that taxing the rich will work forever?”
By itself, no. We also need to stop letting corporations outsource to places like Bangladesh where they can pay people less than a dollar an hour. It is immoral and criminal that we have let this go on for as long as it has. Not only would this be simply the right thing to do, it would restore our manufacturing industry and put people back to work. We also need to raise the minimum wage back to where it was in the late 60s.
Unfortunately, you have no interest in doing any of those things.
So Chris, a guy with a small business that over the last fifteen to twenty years has sacrificed, worked hard, managed to buy a nice house, has planned for his kids college, and finally begins to realize the rewards of his work is rich? You’ve created a big category of people with some hefty obligations to lump together with Warren Buffet, the billionaire. “They can handle it” is a matter of opinion built on ignorance and a failure to empathize. It is built on feelings not reality.
I get that to someone who has been poor $250K seems like a lot of money. I’m not trying to say it isn’t a lot of money in that context. And this is the devilishness in Barack Obama’s scheming mind…he knows there are many people who believe they would be wealthy if they made that kind of money. He plays on the worst in them, envy, covetousness, greed and knows they will support his schemes.
In truth people that are making that kind of money haven’t always made that kind of money. They worked hard to position themselves and they have gradually arranged their lives to reflect their position. They made plans, bought a house, saved for the future and they think they have it figured out. But now the government is telling them that because they succeeded in reaching this rung on the ladder they will be targeted, made the fall guy in a political ploy. The money that will flow to our government because of this tax is like a drop of water in the ocean and will solve nothing. All of the problems that we have will continue because the same politicians that have floated this ploy, this ruse, have no intention of fixing our financial problems.
Congratulations Chris, you are the perfect dupe.
No business will come back to America when the government is determined to spend itself into bankruptcy.
No business will come back to America that isn’t in bed with the democrat machine…the biggest band of corporatists that ever came down the pike!
No business is going to hire or plan for expansion when the only “help” being offered is tax breaks for greater expenditures that produce no new income!
People aren’t going to create sufficient demand as long as they can’t find jobs and can see that the future will be more expensive…higher prices, especially for fuel and food; higher taxes (yes there will be higher taxes on everyone!); higher healthcare costs…and all of it to empower Obama and his cronies as they spend other peoples money and America into oblivion.
Your future is being made crap, Chris, and you are too stupid to wake up to the reality.
THE PROBLEM IN WASHINGTON IS SPENDING NOT INSUFFICIENT REVENUE!
According to CBO:
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43539
In 2012 we SPENT $3.7 trillion and our bank account came up $1.1 trillion short…and you think taxing the so-called rich is a big idea to fix that situation?
America has to generate a tremendous amount of money to run the government, not the programs, just the government and not just this year but every year, year after year. Democrats only have ideas that grow the government and make the burden greater. The social programs have been determined to be impossible to sustain.
Where will the money come from, Chris? At some point small business people will just give up because the state will have made it impossible to stay in business. What will the people who are poor do when opportunity to even begin dries up and millions begin to demand social services? How much better off will the poor be when so many others become takers under the fundamentally transformed system? Think!
You’ve been watching government grow for a day…it’s been growing for decades. How can this go on and on and why are you not worried that your dream as a well compensated teacher, who can retire young on a fabulous pension, won’t be dashed on the rocks? You have to have your head firmly planted not be at least a little concerned.
Tina: “So Chris, a guy with a small business that over the last fifteen to twenty years has sacrificed, worked hard, managed to buy a nice house, has planned for his kids college, and finally begins to realize the rewards of his work is rich?”
If he makes over $250,000 a year, then yes. That’s not a judgment. That’s math.
“You’ve created a big category of people with some hefty obligations to lump together with Warren Buffet, the billionaire.”
No, it’s a small category of people. 2% of Americans. And I didn’t lump them together, nor did Obama–that’s how the tax brackets have been structured for a long time. I agree that millionaires and billionaires should be in a different tax bracket than people making over 250k. But bizarrely, Republicans have rejected the Buffet Rule, so I’m not sure why you’re acting as if Democrats are the ones who don’t want to do this.
“I get that to someone who has been poor $250K seems like a lot of money.”
Stop ignoring the numbers, Tina. $250k is a lot of money to *98% of the country.*
“I’m not trying to say it isn’t a lot of money in that context. And this is the devilishness in Barack Obama’s scheming mind…he knows there are many people who believe they would be wealthy if they made that kind of money.”
Again, Tina, this is how our tax brackets have been structured for a long time. It is not the result of Obama’s “scheming mind.” All he’s asking is to raise the rate back to where they were during the Clinton years.
“In truth people that are making that kind of money haven’t always made that kind of money. They worked hard to position themselves and they have gradually arranged their lives to reflect their position. They made plans, bought a house, saved for the future and they think they have it figured out.”
Good for them! Now they can afford to pay 4% more in taxes. That’s more than a fair trade-off.
“The money that will flow to our government because of this tax is like a drop of water in the ocean and will solve nothing.”
I’ve already said tax increases on their own will not solve the problem. I know the idea of raising the minimum wage is anathema to you. But what do you think about ending the cruel and exploitative outsourcing practices that have been highlighted by the incident in Bangladesh?
All of the problems that we have will continue because the same politicians that have floated this ploy, this ruse, have no intention of fixing our financial problems.
I should clarify what my plan is to deal with exploitative outsourcing:
We need to pass a law that says if you do business in America and other countries, you have to pay all of your workers the equivalent of the American minimum wage. Meaning that you don’t get to pay your American workers $8 an hour and your Indian workers $1 an hour. If you do this, you will not only be fined; you will have your business license revoked.
This may sound radical to you, but to me it seems like common sense. Major corporations shouldn’t have more rights than the average small business owner. They should not get to play by totally seperate rulebooks. And they should not be able to exploit workers in any country.
This will take a lot of the incentive out of outsourcing, and bring American jobs home. We might actually have a functioning American manufacturing industry again. More jobs = more demand, which will help the economy. It will also encourage more competition between small businesses and corporations.
Honestly, how is this not already the law? Oh, yeah: because corporations have too much influence in politics.
Chris: “If he makes over $250,000 a year, then yes.”
You heard it here folks…a guy that makes $250 a year is Warren Buffet rich. You haven’t the slightest idea of what it is to pursue happiness only to have several government entities take it all from you. But you will…mark my words.
“I’m not sure why you’re acting as if Democrats are the ones who don’t want to do this.”
Who has said democrats don’t want to do this. the Objection is that it is all they will do. They lie, the break their promises, they blow smoke, they play games, they have no intention of reforming social programs or cutting budgets in a meaningful way (except for the military which they will happily GUT). They are not serious negotiators…period!
“$250k is a lot of money to *98% of the country.* ”
And that, in your world, rather than under our Constitution and the guarantee of equality under the law gives democrats license to declare them “the rich” and confiscate more than they already take?
This is the big fix at a time when it is obvious that the government has promised more than it can deliver, spent more than it has coming in, and FAILED MISERABLY to create a vibrant recovery! The only solutions democrats have offered is a tax the rich campaign gimmick and printing more money. It’s outrageous!
It’s outrageous that Democrats block all attempts to make real reforms a part of the ten year plan. It’s been outrageous for four years! It’s been outrageous for decades!
It is not the result of Obama’s “scheming mind.”
Oh yes it is. He doesn’t have any other ideas anyway. How about you do the math on the small pittance that this tax will bring inn to the government. The larger point is this is NO PLAN AT ALL…it is a campaign gimmick, a ruse to avoid serious negotiations and to set republicans up as the bad guys again…works on you every damn time its tried.
” All he’s asking is to raise the rate back to where they were during the Clinton years.”
All? ALL? If he were serious he would take the SPENDING back to where it was during the Clinton years! HE’S NOT SERIOUS!
“Good for them! Now they can afford to pay 4% more in taxes. That’s more than a fair trade-off.”
A trade-off? I think you’re ungrateful and full of yourself. Your pride and lack of empathy for those that have worked hard for what they have, your complete inability to relate, your unwillingness to see the government as a big expensive behemoth that hangs around the necks of honest working people is amazing…it will be your downfall.
But I am not surprised one bit by what you have just said. I wish I could run the world for one year. I’d help “folks” like you once, maybe twice, then if that attitude continued I’d throw your ungrateful butt out into the street.
“I’ve already said tax increases on their own will not solve the problem.”
Mighty big of you.
“But what do you think about ending the cruel and exploitative outsourcing practices that have been highlighted by the incident in Bangladesh?
I have not heard about specific “cruelty”…do you have an example in mind?
Generally speaking I think America (all rich nation countries) outsourcing work to poor countries is good. Opportunities to make money are rare in such countries. The more outsourcing we do the greater the chances for those people to lift themselves out of poverty and into the present century.
If a company is discovered to actually put workers in harms way then obviously something needs to be done to stop that. $2.00 an hour is not a cruel wage in a country that has no economy and even less opportunity. Anyone making that kind of money would be considered “rich” (your rules) by his hungry non-working neighbors. I don’t recommend a tax on them, either. I do recommend allowing them to learn the business and I imagine the day will come when they put American companies up against some local competition.
I pretty much agree with this self-named “pragmatic” progressive on outsourcing:
http://www.actnowny.org/6465/the-problem-with-american-jobs/
Toyota and Honda outsource jobs to America…think about it, not every business outsources for cheap labor.
Chris: “We need to pass a law that says if you do business in America and other countries, you have to pay all of your workers the equivalent of the American minimum wage. Meaning that you don’t get to pay your American workers $8 an hour and your Indian workers $1 an hour. If you do this, you will not only be fined; you will have your business license revoked.”
Well of course you do Chris you are Mr. Manage the Worlds Affairs!
Grow up. Learn something.
“Major corporations shouldn’t have more rights than the average small business owner.”
News flash…businesses are private property! This isn’t yet Nazi Germany or Communist Russia or China. It is literally NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what employees are paid. Poor people have had LESS opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty since we enacted the minimum wage…it’s not a help it’s a curse. Unskilled and unschooled persons in this country used to be able to find work…now most of them are in jail instead…some progress!
“This will take a lot of the incentive out of outsourcing, and bring American jobs home.”
No it will add another nail in freedoms coffin and those companies that can will totally outsource and just move all operations out of the country or if they can’t, fold their doors forever like the doctors who are retiring rather than work under the oppression of Obamacare.
“Honestly, how is this not already the law?”
Honestly? You haven’t learned from a word I’ve written why would I attempt to enlighten you further.
You have decided on a profession that guarantees a soft landing paid for by taxpayers so you will not have an opportunity to experience why this would be a disaster. But you just keep soldiering on to try to make life easy for everybody, okay? There’s a good little brown shirt/comrade. One day, it could be fairly soon, you might realize your dream of equal outcomes…but when that day comes please remember: You WERE warned!
Good article:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/12/what_we_should_care_about.html
Tina: “You heard it here folks…a guy that makes $250 a year is Warren Buffet rich.”
Wow. Even assuming you meant $250k and not $250, no one heard this but you, because I never said it. In fact, I said that millionaires and billionaires like Warren Buffet should be in a different tax bracket than those making $250k a year. Why do you constantly accuse your opponents of saying the exact *opposite* of what they have said?
“Who has said democrats don’t want to do this.”
You claimed that Democrats want people making $250k lumped in with millionaires and billionaires. But that’s not true; it is Democrats who have proposed the Buffet Rule, which would put these in different tax brackets. Republicans have dismissed and mocked this proposal, and Warren Buffet personally, because of your radical “no new taxes ever” philosophy.
“And that, in your world, rather than under our Constitution and the guarantee of equality under the law gives democrats license to declare them “the rich” and confiscate more than they already take?”
Are you honestly arguing that the progressive income tax is unconstitutional? You are aware of the 16th Amendment, passed in 1913, right?
If your party wants to make the progressive income tax an issue, then go right ahead. You will lose. More devastatingly, you will render yourselves completely irrelevant to 21st century America.
“Oh yes it is.”
No, it’s simply not. %250,000 has been a cut-off line in tax policy for a very long time. Obama did not invent it.
“How about you do the math on the small pittance that this tax will bring inn to the government.”
When your party stops advocating cuts to PBS and Planned Parenthood, which would also amount to a “small pittance,” then you can have the higher ground to make this argument. As it stands, you are demanding the poor and middle-class to make extra sacrifices in this economic crisis, while getting huffy any time the rich are asked to make extra sacrificed. In a crisis, the wealthiest among us must sacrifice too. Your parents’ generation understood that.
“All? ALL? If he were serious he would take the SPENDING back to where it was during the Clinton years! HE’S NOT SERIOUS!”
This is not even close to a serious proposal. Much of the increase in the past few years has been a response to the recession and has gone directly to economic recovery.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/11/29/right-wing-media-defend-low-tax-rates-for-wealt/191589
“Major corporations shouldn’t have more rights than the average small business owner.”
“News flash…businesses are private property! This isn’t yet Nazi Germany or Communist Russia or China. It is literally NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what employees are paid.”
Tina, the first minimum wage law in the U.S. was enacted in 1938. We kept the minimum wage during our long conflicts with Nazi Germany and Communist Russia. To suggest that the minimum wage, of all things, makes us comparable to either of those dictatorships is ignorant, desperate and insane. But please, keep saying it! Get your politicians and elected officials to make this argument loudly. Again, you will lose, and your party will become a national joke. Your definition of what counts as “American” seems to ignore everything that happened in America from the 20th century on.
I think if you were still in a position to be a minimum wage worker you would have a very different outlook. Minimum wage laws are not anti-freedom. They help the cause of freedom. I don’t know any minimum wage workers who think they’d be better off if the minimum wage was repealed.
“Poor people have had LESS opportunity to lift themselves out of poverty since we enacted the minimum wage…”
You can’t possibly back this up with facts.
I will have to respond to your rosy picture of outsourcing later, especially your seeming lack of knowledge of even a single instance of exploitative labor practices by American corporations overseas. Spoiler alert: there are a crapload of them.
Chris thanks to many loop holes in the IRS code, that absolutely nobody fully understands, I suspect there are more millionaires and billionaires that pay little or no taxes, than those who pay anything close to what their tax bracket says. Maybe we should address that before worrying about tax brackets? -Jack
Chris: “Even assuming you meant $250k and not $250, no one heard this but you, because I never said it.
Oh really? Not only did you say it but members of the Dem party have said it over and over and over again…just to hammer it home. That’s how division in an atmosphere of class envy is created!
Tina: “So Chris, a guy with a small business that over the last fifteen to twenty years has sacrificed, worked hard, managed to buy a nice house, has planned for his kids college, and finally begins to realize the rewards of his work is rich?”
If he makes over $250,000 a year, then yes.
In taking this stance you have shown you are willing to let the President and Reid get away with this bogus non-solution to our countries financial problems and participate in his class warfare approach to governing. What a guy!
“You are aware of the 16th Amendment, passed in 1913, right?
Yes. An abomination because it gave license to unscrupulous politicians to make promises they ultimately couldn’t keep (hence the high taxation, massive debt, and underfunded programs)…to spend our nation into financial ruin. This, of course, is of little consequence to you as long as you can freeload your way to a cushy government job on the backs of the risk takers and wealth producers.
But what will happen to you, Chris, when it costs a wheel barrel full of money just to buy a loaf of bread? Is it possible for you to focus on anything besides your own selfish wants? Have you ever thought in terms of making money for yourself…what would it take…what it would cost you personally?
“%250,000 has been a cut-off line in tax policy for a very long time.”
Hmmm…should I say something nasty about the percent sign goof or can I assume you are human and capable of error just like anyone else?
“Blah blah blah…minimum wage…”
http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-minimum-wage-good-intentions-bad-results
Many others ARE IN JAIL..or locked into the downward spiral of drug use and/or homelessness.
http://www.npr.org/2012/07/08/156458470/raising-minimum-wage-a-help-or-harm
But you keep doing those simple math problems that work out perfectly on paper…it’s great for the old ego. (Too bad it also impairs expansion of knowledge based in experience)
Democrats ran the entire Congress for four years, had a super majority for two years under Obama, and has had Harry Reid acting as a spoiler to House Republicans in the Senate for the last two years (6 years total) and the unemployment rate remains around 8%; GDP growth is sluggish at around 1-2% (We need at least 4% growth); we are drowning in debt with the outlook for a worsening situation very grimm. The only cure for the misery from this President is “tax the rich”, a class warfare campaign ploy. Pathetic and grossly inadequate! Your big solution is raising the minimum wage…you want more from your WalMart job, right?
“your party will become a national joke”
Okay by me Chris. Those judging our ideals are themselves a joke. In gfact, your party is an international joke…you are all just too arrogant to notice.
I have photo’s of the Germans making fun of the Bill, Hillary, and Obama in the most unflattering ways. They are featured in huge floats at a parade. (Why would anyone in any country go to such lengths unless their disdain is HUGE?) Subtitled “the Europeans are laughing at America” the photo’s were sent by Americans traveling in Europe.
The Presidents big trip after his re-election to Indonesia resulted in the Chinese outmaneuvering Obama and making a deal that has incensed liberals and conservatives alike…so much for his influence and so much for the interests of America:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/13/obama-trade-document-leak_n_1592593.html
I read somewhere that ultimately a deal was struck that left the US out but I can’t find the link.nIf true the media has been obediently silent on this, another Obama failure.
So…knock yourself out, Chris, you are riding high on a win that can only lead to a big fall for America, perhaps the world, no matter how you slice it.
America has been a beacon for freedom and opportunity in a world pretty much bent on dictatorial or socialist big government…Obama wants to fix that. You are too stupid to realize what you will lose…wake up!
The biggest loop hole in the tax code is the one that allows more than a third of the American people to pay zero taxes.
This special group has been taught it is their right to take from others even when they are capable of doing for themsleves. it has been told to them by educated people like BO that it’s smart to band together (thanks to Bill Clinton and with Obama’s legal advice behind them) to pressure banks for sub-prime loans (a giant dirty loop hole in the law that eventually lead to the housing bubble and financial crisis). They have learned all they have to do to participate in America is continue to elect socialist progressive Democrats who will give them more and more and more freebies on the backs of the hard working, risk taking, producers in this country. They have been told they deserve this free ride and that those with money robbed them so it’s morally okay to do nothing but collect a check.
Freedom and personal property rights are so passe in America. There is no moral component attached to tax rates anymore. Morality does not figure in to policies. We all earn for the government in the minds of most Americans. It is only a matter of time before it becomes official.
Tina, you’re being willfully deceptive.
You asked me if I thought someone making 250k a year was rich. I said yes.
You then responded by claiming that I said such a person is “Warren Buffet rich,” which is a lie. I did not say such a person is “Warren Buffet rich;” in fact, I argued the exact opposite. People like Warren Buffet are much richer than those who make 250k/yr, and should therefore be in a different tax bracket.
It’s very frustrating when I have to repeat myself because you have intentionally twisted my words to mean the exact opposite of what I said. You do this a lot. It is dishonest and a waste of our time.
Your description of a graduated income tax as an “abomination” just shows how out of touch and antiquated your policy ideas are. Americans don’t want to go back to the early 19th century, Tina. We’re not going to let you drag us back there.
There is no evidence that increasing the minimum wage leads to higher unemployment:
“A significant body of academic research has found that raising the minimum wage does not result in job losses even during hard economic times. There are at least five different academic studies focusing on increases to the minimum wage made during periods of high unemployment—with unemployment rates ranging from 7 percent to 12.3 percent—that find an increase in the minimum wage has no significant effect on employment levels. The results are likely because the boost in demand and reduction in turnover provided by a minimum wage counteracts the higher wage costs.
Similarly, a simple analysis of increases to the minimum wage on the state level, even during periods of state unemployment rates above 8 percent, shows that the minimum wage does not kill jobs. Indeed the states in our simple analysis had job growth slightly above the national average.”
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/labor/news/2012/06/20/11681/the-facts-on-raising-the-minimum-wage-when-unemployment-is-high/
This conservative concedes that the evidence shows no effect on the unemployment rate from minimum wage laws, and makes a conservative case for them (though he does not yet fully support them):
“Let me try to reframe the law entirely: the conservative way to look at the minimum wage is as a law banning workers from having “too low” productivity. “You must contribute at least this much marginal product”, the law says. Since labor markets are generally competitive, employers should be able to claw back the higher pay by reducing non-wage perks, or threatening to replace workers. After all, the static effect of the minimum wage, absent any reaction from workers, would be to create a surplus of labor. Thus workers should be willing to compete for positions by working harder, and should do so until the labor surplus is largely gone. As long as wages are above marginal product there will be some unemployed worker waiting in the wings to take the job.
This is why I think conservatives should favor this policy. It makes workers work harder, earn more, and thus claim less of other welfare benefits that are comparatively ”free” from the recipients standpoint but costly from the governments standpoint.”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2012/07/25/why-conservatives-should-support-the-minimum-wage/
States with higher minimum wages actually have lower unemployment, and often have seen job growth and small business growth after raising the minimum wage:
http://www.fiscalpolicy.org/FPISmallBusinessMinWage.pdf
http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2011-03.pdf#page=3
Your theory that a higher minimum wage leads to lower unemployment is based on ideology, not evidence. The truth is that the minimum wage is lower today than it was in the late 1960s. If your theory were true, unemployment would not be what it is today. This goes double for your theory that low taxes on the rich leads to job creation and low unemployment. Taxes on the rich are lower than ever, and we have seen none of the benefits you claim we should be seeing. Your solution is to lower tax rates on the rich even more, proving once and for all that you don’t make your decisions based on facts, but on misguided faith.
“The biggest loop hole in the tax code is the one that allows more than a third of the American people to pay zero taxes.”
This is infuriatingly dumb and classist, for the following reasons:
1) No one pays “zero taxes.” I assume you are talking about income taxes.
2) You’re obviously only talking about the poor, because you’d never criticize those corporations and wealthy individuals who pay no income taxes.
3) The poor don’t pay income taxes because we CAN’T AFFORD TO.
4) We can’t afford to because our wages suck and American jobs have been shipped overseas. You oppose any measure that would address these concerns, other than “If we’re really really nice to corporations that outsource and pay their workers crap wages, maybe they’ll bring jobs home and pay their workers more? Pretty please?”
5) Your characterization of the poor as people who “take” “freebies” from the “producers” and the government, who lack “morals” and think its OK to “do nothing but collect a check” is so out of touch, dishonest, and offensive, I don’t even know where to begin. Let’s start by pointing out that the majority of people on welfare work, so your claim that we just sit around and collect a check is a lie.
6) It’s also the epitome of class warfare. You know, that thing you claim to hate when it’s done to the powerful, but constantly engage in yourself by targeting the powerless. That’s disgustingly hypocritical and immoral, Tina.
Chris you are being deliberately dishonest about what you wrote. I can’t read what is in your head but, as I cut and pasted above this is exactly what I asked and how you responded:
Tina: “So Chris, a guy with a small business that over the last fifteen to twenty years has sacrificed, worked hard, managed to buy a nice house, has planned for his kids college, and finally begins to realize the rewards of his work is rich?”
Chris: “If he makes over $250,000 a year, then yes.”
It’s very frustrating when you deny what can be read in black and white by anyone. You indicated that the person making $250K is rich and should pay at the same rate as Buffet (unless the law is changed)…now you want to walk that back with the opinion that rates should be changed. good for you but your opinion doesn’t change your ignorant, IMO, attitude and opinion. The point is that as far as this discussion goes the rates are not changed and you don’t care if a guy has to borrow to pay taxes or fire people, or worse, close his doors.
“Americans don’t want to go back to the early 19th century, Tina. We’re not going to let you drag us back there.”
Nobody suggested that. What do you have against policies that encourage people to be self reliant? What do you have against reforming SS and medicare so that the government can actually afford the bill without putting debt on future generations?
I’ve worked all my life and payed much higher rates than was anticipated for the generations before me only to find out it wasn’t enough and my grandchildren will be saddled with higher taxes to pay for the pandering idiocy of congress. I’ve watched democrats block most efforts to reform these systems, not because they care but because they can buy votes by painting republicans as wanting to “take away” these programs.
You are too unwilling to consider options that would lift more people out of poverty, allow many of them to move into the middle class and give all of them an opportunity if they work to build personal wealth as they work. Within a couple of generations the poor could be a whole lot better off but you are stuck in that plantation mentality…you are stuck in institutional poverty thinking.
“your description of a graduated income tax as an “abomination'”
The 16th amendment is an abomination “because” it gives license to unscrupulous politicians to take property from the citizens for redistribution. The graduated aspect was added later and is equally disturbing based on the 14th amendment. I realize this is not a popular opinion but that doesn’t not mean that it shouldn’t be. this fellow puts it well:
http://chuck-bitingmytongue.blogspot.com/2008/07/when-people-find-they-can-vote.html
I have to go…I may or may not return.
Tina: “Chris you are being deliberately dishonest about what you wrote.”
No. You took my statement that people making $250k were “rich” and magically transformed it into a statement that they are “Warren Buffet rich.” Those statements means two different things, obviously.
“You indicated that the person making $250K is rich and should pay at the same rate as Buffet (unless the law is changed)…now you want to walk that back with the opinion that rates should be changed.”
Except that, in the *exact same comment* where I said people making $250k are rich, I also said that they should NOT pay the same rate as Buffet. Here is my statement:
“I agree that millionaires and billionaires should be in a different tax bracket than people making over 250k. But bizarrely, Republicans have rejected the Buffet Rule, so I’m not sure why you’re acting as if Democrats are the ones who don’t want to do this.”
I am not “walking back” anything I have said. I brought up Warren Buffet before you did, and made it clear from the beginning that he should be in different tax bracket from those making 250k/yr. That’s the exact opposite of what you accused me of saying.
I should also point out that people making 250k/yr currently pay the same tax rate as Warren Buffet. Democrats are the ones who want that changed; Republicans are the ones objecting. So your assertion that I want them in the same tax bracket would make no sense even if I hadn’t explicitly said the opposite.
I am no longer sure you were being intentionally dishonest; this argument may reveal very poor reading comprehension on your part.
“The point is that as far as this discussion goes the rates are not changed and you don’t care if a guy has to borrow to pay taxes or fire people, or worse, close his doors.”
I can’t care about a problem when I have no evidence that it exists, Tina. In general, I don’t believe that business owners who make more than 98% of the country *have* to do any such thing. If your business is making more money than 98% of the competition and you are still having financial problems bad enough to make you close your business, you are doing something wrong.
“Nobody suggested that. What do you have against policies that encourage people to be self reliant? What do you have against reforming SS and medicare so that the government can actually afford the bill without putting debt on future generations?”
The former is a strawman argument and the latter is just blatantly dishonest. Obama has reformed Medicare by cutting $7 billion of waste and beuracracy. Your party falsely claimed these cuts would hurt seniors, even though your VP candidate’s proposal contained the same dollar amount of cuts, but did so in such a way that actually DID cut senior’s access to healthcare through raising the eligiblity age and forcing seniors to pay more out of pocket. Obama’s solution was reform; your guy’s solution was to make seniors pay more.
“I’ve worked all my life and payed much higher rates than was anticipated for the generations before me”
You’ll have to back this up with actual numbers. How much does your business make a year? I’ve been very open about my financial circumstances, but you are usually pretty tight-lipped about yours.
“You are too unwilling to consider options that would lift more people out of poverty, allow many of them to move into the middle class and give all of them an opportunity if they work to build personal wealth as they work.”
Excuse me, ma’am. I am living in poverty *right now.* I know what will lift me out. I know what will lift out the other people I know–my co-workers, my fellow students, my friends, my family members–and your solutions just don’t cut it. I am sorry, but you are just not in a position to tell me what will work best for my life. I know it better than you do.
Higher wages lift people out of poverty. Look up minimum wage levels and compare them to unemployment and poverty relationship. You will see an inverse relationship.
“Within a couple of generations the poor could be a whole lot better off but you are stuck in that plantation mentality…you are stuck in institutional poverty thinking.”
I’m stuck with half the country thinking that poor people are to blame for our own poverty. I’m stuck with class warfare against the poor being completely acceptable. I’m stuck with seeing my Facebook “friends” post comments about how welfare recipients are lazy, ungrateful moochers who use food stamps to buy beer, and who get pissed when they are used to buy a candy bar because of course we aren’t deserving of such luxuries, but those same people say nothing about massive corporate subsidies. That’s what I’m stuck with, Tina. And I’m sick and tired of it. You have no idea.
“The graduated aspect was added later and is equally disturbing based on the 14th amendment.”
Maybe if you grossly misinterpret the 14th Amendment, along with the whole notion of equality. It is not equal for a poor person and a rich person to pay the same tax rate. Whatever percentage is set, that percentage is going to drastically affect a poor person’s life in a way that it will not affect a rich person’s life. People living paycheck to paycheck have far less disposable income, and we spend nearly every dime that comes in as soon as we get it. It makes no sense to tax us at the same percentage as Warren Buffet. But if you don’t believe in a graduated income tax, then that’s what you’re advocating.
“I realize this is not a popular opinion but that doesn’t not mean that it shouldn’t be.”
It’s unpopular because it’s deeply immoral. A flat tax would be devastating to the poor and would be a huge boon to those who are already rich. And you wonder why Republicans are accused of being cold-hearted and anti-poor?
This conversation has become entirely too unwieldy. You’re behaving like an ungrateful person and its amazing to me because you have benefited greatly from the contributions of others. You have no sense of what it takes to make money on your own, to employ people, to build something and attempt to plan for the future with an uncertain road that should be well lit and paved. We have paid a lot for this government and it has given us nothing but grief. One of your comments suggest that all businesses are alike. Another comment asks what my business makes as if it was any of your business. This kind of thinking is bred by having been given a college education, food stamps and the like without being taught that you should feel some gratitude or at least humility. You assume you have answers when you hardly know the questions. You get those answers from people that also have no real life business experience but have read a lot of opinions and books. I’m disgusted at the spectacle you represent as a college educated person in the United States of America.
Republicans are not merely objecting Chris. Republicans are demanding MORE! Demanding more than a tax the rich scheme. Demanding more…some indication that the President is serious! Republicans are attempting to engage the President and Democrats in an honest conversation about serious issues. They are attempting to face the truth about the situation and find remedy for the mess.
Democrats are playing the usual political games. They will not make serious suggestions about reforming the system; they will not accept reforms suggested by Republicans even when they know they have the opportunity to make changes and seek compromise. This happens to be the process by which legislation is usually created.
Obama by-passes the Congress by basically saying, “talk to the hand”, campaigning to set Republicans up to take the blame, and letting the time run out all the while pretending he has taken the high road. His sycophant supporters, like you, swallow this poison as if it were caviar and think of him as brilliant.
And he is brilliant, criminally brilliant. He thinks like a mob boss. There is no compromise and there are few members in the family. A lot of people that don’t belong to his inner circle will be screwed by this poor excuse for a president! Obama is unconcerned! He couldn’t care less. I find that reprehensible.
People in business don’t know what to do come January 1. Tax preparers and the IRS have forms that need to be sent out. What the hell Chris! This isn’t a class that examines theory…this is life.
This president is doing unprecedented harm to our nation and to job growth and production. It could take years to recover even with reforms to the system. Why is it not more important to him? Why will he not engage in any other conversation?
It doesn’t make sense Chris. You cannot make sense of it.
“It is not equal for a poor person and a rich person to pay the same tax rate”
No Chris. It is not “fair” for a poor person and a rich person to pay the same rate. I think of all Americans as equals. Their status, their race, their religion mean nothing in terms of their equality. A flat tax could be fair as well but a flat tax would definitely be a more equal system that the progressive (Marxist) tax.
A progressive tax on what we earn gives license to our representatives to take our property at any time and at rate. This is not a system that reflects a free people equal under the law.
It is also not “fair” that the poor person doesn’t have to contribute when someone decides to build a factory, a hospital, a library or college or when someone funds the research that leads to a cure for cancer.
The rich do these things voluntarily. They do it to make money, they do it to create opportunity, and they do it out of a sense of community and altruism. It is a vibrant and alive system. They hire people. They make things that people want and need. They share in the adventure with the people that come to work with/for them. There are a lot of ways the wealthy contribute.
Your perspective is skewed Chris. You leave out tremendous amounts of information when you make these comparisons.
Life isn’t fair. No amount of progressive taxation will ever make it fair. The closest anyone got was a fair system of shared misery (communism)…even then the elite always, always end up wealthy and privileged.
Equality is a totally different bird. You could use a bit of education and some appreciation for this wonderful word.
But for now, you have chosen to support control over freedom and opportunity. You win. Lucky you. I’m done.
Tina: “You’re behaving like an ungrateful person and its amazing to me because you have benefited greatly from the contributions of others.”
I am grateful for what I have been given and for what I have earned, Tina. I am grateful for the financial aid programs you want eliminated. I am grateful for the job I have, though I do believe my work is worth more than I am currently being payed. But this isn’t the dinner table, and it isn’t church. We come to political blogs to talk about how to make things better for our society, not to express gratitude for what we already have.
You don’t know me personally and you do not know how I express gratitude in my everyday life. I am a model employee; I never complain at work and I do everything I am asked to do with a smile. I am also grateful for the opportunity to go to school and get an education so that I can get a better job some day. I work hard to earn what I have, as do the vast majority of people who receive government aid.
Your attempts to paint us as ungrateful or of not understanding the value of hard work run counter to all available evidence.
“We have paid a lot for this government and it has given us nothing but grief.”
Really? You can’t think of one positive thing government has done for you? That would be like me saying businesses have given us nothing but grief. I’ve never made a statement that extreme, because I’m not an extremist. Businesses do wonderful things: they provide jobs, as well as goods and services. I work for a large corporation, and I am grateful for the job I have.
But the world isn’t black and white. Corporations have too much power today. Workers are grateful for the jobs we have, but we are not being payed fair wages and we don’t know how to go about negotiating for better without getting fired. The recent Wal-Mart strikes would have been much bigger if the company weren’t so intimidating toward workers who even hint at unionizing. We know we can be replaced in a heartbeat.
“One of your comments suggest that all businesses are alike.”
Which one?
“Another comment asks what my business makes as if it was any of your business.”
You brought up your tax rate but refused to say what it actually is. You frequently suggest that you and your business are facing hardships because of government intervention but you never give specifics. How do you expect people to believe you if you don’t give any evidence? Like I said, I’ve been very open about my personal circumstances, and through doing so I’ve made my case for why the social programs you oppose are necessary for me to succeed and become a more productive citizen. But you just expect people to take your word for it that you are being oppressed by the government without offering any details. You haven’t made your case.
“This kind of thinking is bred by having been given a college education, food stamps and the like without being taught that you should feel some gratitude or at least humility.”
This is presumptuous, arrogant and rude. You have no right.
Your assertion that Obama hasn’t tried to compromise with Republicans is utterly ridiculous:
“Four years ago, a more magnanimous Obama put $300 billion in tax cuts into the stimulus Republicans supposedly favored, and begged Republicans for their spending wish-lists. He pre-emptively dropped the health reform proposal he ran on in the primaries, embracing Romney and Clinton’s individual mandate and rejecting the public option. He tried to figure out what would be a reasonable compromise between his goals and the goals of the opposition, and he proposed it. The tactic didn’t work, either legislatively or politically. He didn’t win over GOP votes, and they slammed him for being dictatorial.
Faced with the same situation, he’s now trying something different.
Obama has made it clear these are not non-negotiable demands. But this time he has chosen to advocate for his priorities, not the Republicans’ priorities. If they want deeper cuts in entitlement and spending, let them say what they are. If they want to reduce deductions, close loopholes and reduce rates, let them figure out how to do it. The old Obama would have tried to incorporate their goals into his program, only to have it be rejected by them. Not this time.”
http://www.littlefallstimes.com/community/blogs/holmes-and-co/x459327433/The-art-of-compromise
And your assertion that a flat tax would be more fair and equal is nuts. No one is going to take that idea seriously, Tina. Enjoy your party’s slide into irrelevance.
“I am grateful for the financial aid programs you want eliminated.”
That is a lie; I have never said that. This is an indication that you respond to your own prejudices, rather than to me, and fail to engage in honest discussion about issues. You have an us against them attitude and don’t care if the policies Obama (the left) take up will destroy the country financially.
“Your attempts to paint us as ungrateful or of not understanding the value of hard work run counter to all available evidence.”
I didn’t paint “us” (all) as ungrateful; I said you have an ungrateful attitude toward those who have paid your way in life. You may smile and do a good job and all the rest…good for you. But you express ZERO appreciation for what it takes…what it has taken for others to make the money that is taxed so that you have had those privileges and to that degree you are ungrateful. Your gratitude is nothing but window dressing.
“You can’t think of one positive thing government has done for you?”
I can think of nothing that the people couldn’t have done for themselves and at far less money. The tax the rich scheme that you think is so wonderful will fund the bureaucracy for about eight days. If you don’t think that’s stupid and wasteful you are more ignorant than I thought. Government has become a big game for politicians and social engineering. The politicians go in poor and come out millionaires. The ones that get off on power also enjoy spending time controlling people. The Marxist get their rocks off by destroying the capitalist system while getting rich.
“blah blah…We know we can be replaced in a heartbeat.”
Welcome to the world as it is kid. Life isn’t fair. When you are on the bottom rung you are on the bottom rung. It isn’t the corporation…it is life. Why should the corporation take on the headache of dealing with the union thug mentality that has bankrupted business (and the private sector) out of GREED.
Big corporations are a very different animal from small corporate business…that is who will be harmed most by these taxes.
BY the way, have you noticed all of the big corporations that are handing out BIG dividends this year to avoid higher rates in 2013? Most of these people will realize millions (or billions) from these dividends. Next year they won’t give dividends and they may not take salary more than $1.00. They change their behavior and Obama will NOT realize the big cash return to government coffers. SO MUCH FOR SIMPLE MATH. A lot of these clowns supported Obama in the recent election. What do they care they are already wealthy. But they will have done great damage to small aspiring businesses, to small businesses that have not been making much money over the past three to four years but had a good year in 2012, to small farmers who need cash for next years crops.
I don’t share my personal business information because it is none of your business but also because of the nature of my business…it isn’t constant. Like the building and real estate business it changes from year to year. It is literally impossible for me to guess what next year will look like because I have no control over sales. I can’t advertise or promote my product.
Found this article from January 2011:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-26/obama-backs-cut-in-u-s-corporate-tax-rate-only-if-it-won-t-affect-deficit.html
President Barack Obama called on Congress to cut the top U.S. corporate tax rate for the first time in 25 years “without adding to our deficit,” a sign that businesses will have to give up tax breaks in exchange for lower rates.
The president, in his State of the Union address to Congress last night, also pressed for simplifying the tax system for individuals, which would restructure how more than $1 trillion in revenue is collected annually.
“The best thing we could do on taxes for all Americans is to simplify the individual tax code,” he said, to applause from the audience. “This will be a tough job, but members of both parties have expressed interest in doing this, and I am prepared to join them.”
Some analysts said Obama’s willingness to consider a corporate tax overhaul along with tax simplification may lead to changes in the code.
“Tax reform has been like the weather, everyone talks about it but no one does anything about it,” said Pat Heck, a partner at the Washington law firm KL Gates and a former top aide to the Senate Finance Committee. “Tonight’s speech could be a game changer. While it would be naïve to think tax reform legislation will be drafted overnight, a long journey always begins with a first step.”
Representative David Camp, a Michigan Republican who chairs the tax-writing House Ways and Means Committee, said he was “disappointed” by the lack of details in Obama’s call for a tax overhaul.
“I think it could have used a little bit more on his proposals on individual tax reform,” Camp said in an interview after the speech. “Frankly, we really need more of a path forward even on the corporate side. I think we need some more concrete plans.”
A man we can trus? No. Absolutely not! A man that cares about jobs and private property rights? No! Absolutely not!! A man that cares about poor people. No. Absolutely not! He cares about making sure we all share misery equally under his magnificent leadership.
“This is presumptuous, arrogant and rude. You have no right.”
Oh but I do. I paid for your very survival. I paid so that you could go to college. How does it feel to be under the heel of those who paid your way? Do you think that is a good way for the people of a free country to live?
I would prefer a different system and I KNOW that without the big bureaucratic monster on all of our backs schools and colleges would be affordable and better at educating…groceries would be affordable, rents would be affordable. Fuel would be affordable. There would be ways for the poor to create a better life for themselves and they would have the greatest incentive in the world to pursue those opportunities…”nobody is going to take care of me so I better do something to improve my life'”. People in America did it for decades…some still manage to do so because of their principles but because of the enormous amount of money taken out of the private sector to feed the government beast it is much harder.
“Blah blah…magnanimous Obama…blah blah…The tactic didn’t work, either legislatively or politically. He didn’t win over GOP votes, and they slammed him for being dictatorial.”
Of course it worked! Exactly as he wanted it to!
Chris he ordered a bipartisan commission to figure out the best way to move forward to “create jobs” and “blah blah blah” and he ignored every single suggestion in Simpson-Bowles. Watch what he does NOT what he says!
“If they want deeper cuts in entitlement and spending, let them say what they are.”
They have! He has rejected all of them and offered no suggestions of his own!!
“he old Obama would have tried to incorporate their goals into his program, only to have it be rejected by them. Not this time.”
There is no old Obama; there is no new Obama. Obama is the same Marxist boss he’s always been.
“Enjoy your party’s slide into irrelevance. ”
And you enjoy your slide into American irrelevance and shared misery.
Tina: “That is a lie; I have never said that.”
You have said that the Pell Grant, as well as other government aid programs for college, should be eliminated. My statement was true. This policy, if enacted, would not hurt me, as I am almost done with college. It would hurt many of my family members and friends, as well as many of my future students. I can’t let that happen.
“This is an indication that you respond to your own prejudices, rather than to me, and fail to engage in honest discussion about issues.”
Are you denying that you have stated that social programs such as the Pell Grant should be eliminated? That is hardly honest, Tina.
“I can think of nothing that the people couldn’t have done for themselves and at far less money.”
That’s because your radical anti-government philosophy blinds you to reality. Go tell a firefighter or police officer their jobs would be better off being privatized, and watch them laugh in your face.
“The tax the rich scheme that you think is so wonderful will fund the bureaucracy for about eight days.”
This is such a selective metric to use. Why don’t you apply this same standard to the cuts you are proposing? How many days would cutting PBS save us? How about eliminating the Pell Grant? Raising the eligibility age for Medicare?
I don’t think that’s a useful metric, given that no economists actually use it. But if you’re going to use it, you need to use it consistently.
You’re also ignoring how much it costs us if we let the tax cuts on the rich continue. According to the CBO, extending the tax cuts on high-income earners will increase the deficit by $2.6 trillion over ten years:
http://mediamatters.org/research/2012/11/27/fox-defends-wealthy-from-tax-increases-with-mis/191531
And you are still pretending that raising taxes on the rich is the only solution Democrats have proposed, when in fact we’ve also proposed closing loopholes, raising wages, reducing outsourcing, and more stimulus. All of these measures would increase revenue.
“Why should the corporation take on the headache of dealing with the union thug mentality that has bankrupted business (and the private sector) out of GREED.”
Because they don’t have a choice. Unionizing is a constitutional right and a natural function of the free market. Workers have the right to negotiate for fair wages. I don’t know how you can call that “greed” when the average Wal-Mart worker is barely making enough to provide for themselves. Forget providing for a family. We’re just trying to survive. That you can call organizations designed to protect workers “greedy,” while saying nothing about Wal-Mart as a corporation, is so skewed I don’t even know where to begin.
“Big corporations are a very different animal from small corporate business…that is who will be harmed most by these taxes.”
False. Only 2-3% of small businesses make enough to have their taxes raised.
“A man we can trus? No. Absolutely not! A man that cares about jobs and private property rights? No! Absolutely not!! A man that cares about poor people. No. Absolutely not! He cares about making sure we all share misery equally under his magnificent leadership.”
How do you get this from your article in which Obama argues for lowering the corporate tax rate? Does every article about the president automatically translate to “OMG Obama is a big bad Commie” in your brain?
“Oh but I do. I paid for your very survival. I paid so that you could go to college. How does it feel to be under the heel of those who paid your way?”
Let’s get one thing straight: I am not “under your heel,” and I never will be.
As for how it feels to be told this: It feels like you’re being an elitist, ignorant bully, that’s how it feels.
How much of your personal tax dollars do you think go to fund welfare programs, Tina? A few dollars a year? And I see, what–a quarter of a cent from you, personally? And you want me to thank you, even though if it were up to you, your tax dollars wouldn’t go to anything but funding more pointless wars? Well, gee, ma’am, much obliged. Maybe to pay you back for such generosity I should come on over and bust up your chiffarobe. Would that make you happy?
Jesus H. The nerve of some people.
“Do you think that is a good way for the people of a free country to live?”
If you have a problem with people being dependent on welfare, blame the corporations that don’t pay them enough and outsource their jobs. It’s that simple. If you don’t want your taxpayer dollars going to me, then advocate better wages so that I will not need your taxpayer dollars. Wal-Mart is choosing to pass on the cost of their workers’ healthcare, food and living expenses onto you, the taxpayer. Don’t blame the people who are only on welfare because they have no choice.
I am so sick of your scapegoating of the poor. I guess it’s easier for some people to blame the powerless instead of the powerful.
I have to say, I can’t wait to be in the financial position to pay more in income taxes than I get back. Hopefully this will come soon. I will be done with the credential program in a year, and will hopefully get a teaching job shortly after.
When that happens, I will be happy to have my tax dollars go to help other people get an education and provide for their families.
What I definitely won’t do is bitch and moan about my tax dollars going to help people educate and feed themselves, then rub my small and involuntary contribution in the faces of college students who are going to school and working to help support themselves and their family. That would make me a total a**hole.
Chris I have never said we should eliminate pell grants. I have had discussions with you and suggested that if we didn’t have pell grants and you wanted a college education you would find a way to get one. I have pointed out to you that others have done it without grants and without loans. I have suggested cutting all programs 10%. You seem to eventually have a knee jerk response in our discussions because you are unwilling to consider possibilities beyond what you know and because you believe every conservative is heartless, radical, extreme, racist…take your pick.
You might want to consider the difference between a discussion and a cause. When I am engaged in discussion here I assume an exchange of ideas. I think you are all about cause. You think I’m organizing when I’m attempting to give people a safe place to learn and exchange ideas.
You can’t consider what I’m saying because you have a deep prejudice. A suggestion that people could do for themselves for less, as part of a general discussion about how we can’t afford this gargantuan government, is met with threatening language about police and fire. Good grief!
A. Police and fire are local<.em>; I support both (underfunded pensions another topic)
B. Look at the size of the federal budget and debt burden…these are not reasonable or sustainable…adults can see that they are not and that something must be done!
Gotta go. No need to answer the rest it’s more than likely just more of the same old whine and attack. Grow up and we’ll talk.
Oh wow, I suppose you expect to be called St. Chris now?
I’m happy for you, Chris, and I applaud and congratulate you for getting an education. Paying taxes is part of adult responsibilities…as is making hard decisions, unpopular decisions, decisions you would rather leave to someone else because you know they will be unpopular or seem uncaring.
Let us know if you’re ever ready to be that adult.
I imagine you will continue to be the same kind of a**hole you are now: inconsiderate of others, unable or unwilling to empathize or understand beyond your deeply held prejudices, and wired-in to the cause and control machine of the Marxist left.
You may never learn what it takes to create wealth; you may get to find out what its like when the wealth machine is greatly diminished and blunted.
Here’s some recommended reading for the man who thinks fairy tails go on forever:
http://finance.townhall.com/columnists/peterschiff/2012/07/11/the_real_fiscal_cliff/page/full/
http://www.cnbc.com/id/48216719/Fiscal_Cliff_Tax_Hikes_Could_Cost_710_000_Jobs
http://spectator.org/archives/2012/12/04/fiscal-cliff-notes