Posted by Tina
What do you think of the following statements:
…conservatives know that human flourishing comes from aspiration nurtured in community. This is true for the poor and rich alike. So any policy or program that works against this goal isn’t compassionate; it’s destructive. Meanwhile, conservatism — properly understood — nurtures conditions in which all of these institutions together can elevate the lives of all citizens, including the poor, far more than government alone ever could. That’s why conservatism is compassionate.
After commenting follow the link to read the article in “The American”
Yep. That is conservatism. ^5’s
Conservatism is also about giving people a hand up, not a hand out Fo example not completely destroying the black family by developing a Democratic Party welfare state policy that once encouraged (and to some extent still does) young black women to get pregnant, stay single, and get on the dole. At least BJ Clinton was just conservative enough to sign into law some welfare reform.
Conservatism is also about attempting to stem the racial eugenics of abortion, which may at this late date be impossible.
Conservatism is also NOT about shoving a sharp object into the head of a living baby human being, partially born, and giving it a good spin to scramble its brains. THAT is Liberalism.
My parents were conservative Republicans. My father escaped from the corrupt, violent, and to-the-bone cold Democratic Party Machine controlled Chicago (and great state of Illinois). They came to the promise of sunny California. One of our neighbors were dyed-in-the-wool liberal northern Democrats from Washington state.
My conservative Republican parents found abortion to be a horror, much less federally enabled and sanctioned abortion. My father served to fight the Nazis in WWII for this? The wholesale murder of the most innocent and disenfranchised among us encouraged by the government was antithesis to civilization for my folks. My Democrat neighbors (over a cup of coffee, across the fence, or at a neighborhood cocktail party) thought abortion an effective way to keep the n*ggers from breeding. (Something Mom told me about decades later when I was quite well along in adulthood.) Besides, as my Democrat neighbors added, it would be mostly n*ggers who would access abortion, not white people. Sure enough, this has turned out to be true.
As a child I had never even heard the word n*gger until I learned it from my Democrat neighbor’s kids. When I repeated it in front of my parents my mouth wasn’t washed out with soap, I got the dreaded belt on my backside. Needless to say I never uttered that word again until I became a fan of Lenny Bruce, and certainly never in front of my parents.
I am still a fan of Lenny Bruce, but not abortion and racial eugenics.
Eugenics began in the US:
Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2fsAowX7ryE
Pie: “At least BJ Clinton was just conservative enough to sign into law some welfare reform.”
I’d say he was willing to acknowledge the power shift that occurred in “94 and turned right for expediency. It actually was really good for his legacy. Had he taken the BO track he would not have ended his presidency with success. Had Hillary care been enacted he would have been sunk. But we must always remember he is at heart a power hungry spotlight grabbing man who will make the requisite “communitarian” speech for the wife at the drop of a hat.
Interesting story about the neighbors.
“… hat human flourishing comes from aspiration …. So any policy or program that works against this goal isn’t compassionate; it’s destructive.”
And so, “ketchup is a vegetable” figures into this philosophy … exactly … how?
I studied both conservatives and liberals in depth, and I found the conservative philosophy made more sense and it was ultimately more compassionate and sustainable.
Like Pie said, they offer you a hand up, not a handout. That’s sustainable help!
My Mom was a democrat and my Dad was a republican, she was more emotion driven than my dad who was well grounded and very realistic and pragmatic. But, back in that day democrats had a lot more honor than they do now, so I can’t fault my Mom too much. I think she would be horrified to see how the radical left has undermined her party. I could no more be a democrat today than I could be a communist. Then again…what’s the diff?
Democrats today aren’t the same Democrats we grew up with. If JFK was running today I’d consider voting for him. But, since the progressives have taken over the Democrats and are working on the Republicans one can’t compare the now to the past.
Republicans haven’t had a true conservative in the WH since Ronald Reagan. Both Bushes had strong progressive flaws and contributed greatly to our dept.
A better identifier for today’s Democrats would be the Progressive Party and Republicans the Conservative Party. All in between would be RINOs and DINOs.
I no longer identify myself as a Republican because I don’t want to be associated with the McCain and Mitchells. They no longer support my fiscal and other values.
False. Conservatism is not compassionate, nor is liberalism. Ideologies cannot be compassionate, only people can be.
Are there compassionate conservatives? Of course, I know many in my daily life. I don’t know that many in the halls of political power. Then again, most liberals in political power aren’t motivated by compassion, either.
Modern conservative policy does not seem to have much to do with “aspirations nurtured in community” to me. The opposition to minimum wage, for instance, seems to invite powerful corporations to destroy communities by enacting low wages and suppressing unions. How can aspirations be nurtured in a community when that community’s largest employer pays wages so low that the majority of its employees are forced to go on government assistance?
There’s also the assumption, expressed here, that government assistance programs are the problem. They’re not the problem, they’re just a very bad and temporary solution. A better solution would be requiring corporations to pay employees the true value of their work. Or, at the least, respecting the right of workers to unionize and fight for higher wages on their own, without facing punishment from their employers. This is the only way to give average workers the power to truly negotiate with their employers. Without unions, they have little to no power to demand fair wages.
Yet the conservatives in power, and those that follow them, oppose these solutions as well. They tell the poor that if we just let the rich have even more power over our lives, then they will give us more opportunities to move up. I understand that you truly believe this, and you see this view as compassionate. But it certainly is not experienced as compassionate by the vast majority of people you’re trying to help. True compassion involves respecting and understanding the views of those you are trying to help, not condescendingly telling us that we will be better off if we listen to your unsolicited advice about what we should do with our lives. Mitt Romney certainly was not behaving in a compassionate manner when he wrongly suggested that 47% of the country is too poor to pay income taxes because we are lazy, irresponsible and don’t want to work.
Compassion would be acknowledging that most people under the poverty line are working very hard, and not getting fairly compensated for our work. It would be coming up with adequate alternatives to welfare programs that would put power back in the hands of those of us who are struggling, so that we can actually do something to escape the cycle of poverty. These guys seem pretty compassionate to me, and I don’t share their ideology at all; but at least they’re trying to come up with solutions to the problems of big government other than “let’s give the rich more money.”
http://c4ss.org/
I don’t see how the conservatives in power are offering a “hand up” or a “handout,” at least not to average people. How is keeping the minimum wage at a historical low–or even talking about eliminating it entirely–a “hand up” to workers? How is taxing investment income at a lower rate than earned income a “hand up” to workers?
Chris, the first thing that gets adjusted when minimum wage goes up is inflation. Yes, I know than minium wage at it’s current level is running behind inflation a bit, but it will never be a perfect siutation here. Minimum wage is just a stepping stone, always has been and always will be. I agree, it’s not a livable wage, but it was not intended to be.
Re #5 Tina: “I’d say he was willing to acknowledge the power shift that occurred in “94 and turned right for expediency.”
Ya know, after some thought, I believe you nailed it.
Chris is an expert on compassion and nurturing. So was Stalin. So is Obama.
Stalin? Ya mean the dude that taught Fred Koch the oil biz?
There is absolutely no factual info used. Guess what we are not going back to slavery and turning this country into slave labor.
I will make sure I share this around town so people can see exactly what the Tea Party stands for.
Economics do not support the Koch funded propaganda and Americans have had enough.
Vote Out all Tea party 2014!
The Progressive Liberty — “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to suck at the teat” of compassion, Big Brother Chris/Obama style —
https://twitter.com/PieGuevara/status/401909995333103616/photo/1/large
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
And pappy Bush profits off spying on US citizens!
On a completely unrelated note, one of my favorite modern composers —
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spx0NthRoVc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cPEchNTSE0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0sb159J4O0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpsJuHJsAF8
Enjoy! (I hope.)
More modern symphonic favorites —
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FGxdBzjuGw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-rHdSWZLpQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdfmSfCST8I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P9QvJ0MDp4&list=PL8FF0B58AB9C73DDE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5Ahe_1KZcg
One more —
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOy6M_X2MO8
Dewey: “And pappy Bush profits off spying on US citizens!”
Your skewed and ill-informed opinions know no bounds!
There were many American businessmen who associated with “German businessmen” prior to our entry into WWII. The horrendous activities of the Nazi’s were not yet in full bloom, nor well known, and America had not yet entered the war.
As an example, Joseph P. Kennedy is also said to have been “connected” to “Nazi’s”. It’s quite likely that many of them were German Jews.
You should be made aware, if you are not already and that is doubtful, of the distinguished military service of George H.W. Bush:
Hateful lies and conspiracies are not useful, especially when presented as fact, to anyone but those who seek to viciously undermine America and smear political opponents.
“Stalin? Ya mean the dude that taught Fred Koch the oil biz?”
Our readers should know the truth:
So much for the Stalin connection. It sounds like the Koch’s taught the Soviets a thing or two on the way to realizing how despicable Stalin was.
Please refrain from making these ad hoc comments.
Come on, people! Examples! Proof!
I offered an example: “ketchup is a vegetable”.
Now, you tell me how tomatoes with all the vitamins boiled out of them, added to refined sugar, is, indeed, a conservative, compassionate … and nutritious! … component of an impoverished child’s school lunch.
Come on! Let’s hear it!
You must have something!?!
Democratic Party Compassion = bald faced lies that you can keep your health care plan if you like your health care plan, you can keep your doctor if you like your doctor, and forcing millions into plans that cover services that many people do not want or need or can afford.
Personal message to Chris, Obama, Pelosi, Reid, and all Democrats —
Take your “compassion” and shove it up your posterior orifice and please drop dead at your earliest possible convenience.
Progressive, liberal, left wing, Democratic Party compassion —
https://www.google.com/search?q=partial+birth+abortion&num=100&newwindow=1&client=firefox-a&hs=KLb&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=rkyIUrXEJ-a2igKzjICQBQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1600&bih=729&dpr=1
Democrats are searching desperately for an issue that connects to people emotionally and isn’t tainted with an obvious down-side. They have tossed out the minimum wage argument as a possible winner.
Our readers need good information to make good voting decisions. The lessons of Obama’s disastrous economic policy should not enough and cannot be ignored. This president’s record is the worst in terms of jobs, growth, and the economic well being of citizens. The middle class is shrinking as more people drop into poverty and that, of course, places downward pressure on programs and services for the poor. Meanwhile small business and corporate money sits on the sidelines due to uncertainty, higher taxes, and harsh regulation making opportunities scarce. How can any of this be deemed compassionate?
The minimum wage will not solve our economic problems or appreciably help minimum wage workers. The few dollars more they earn, if their hours aren’t cut, will not help the economy or create new jobs and the cost to business will lead to higher prices or fewer jobs nullifying their increase.
Read this Forbes article to better understand the argument. Here’s a taste:
Government policies have consequence in real peoples lives. What looks good on paper does not always translate to the real world.
Support for a minimum wage hike is not evidence of compassion. In fact it could just as easily be described as evidence of greed or laziness.
“Ideologies cannot be compassionate, only people can be.”
But when it is claimed that conservatism is more compassionate the claim is made based on an observed affect in peoples lives from policies that flowed from conservative ideology. Personal knowledge of the positive changes in peoples lives when taxes were cut under Ronald Reagan is an example of how conservatism is compassionate. (I hope our readers will read the entire page)
Reflection about the choice of signing up for welfare or being offered a job sets in motion the “teach a man to fish” proverb we have all heard. It is more compassionate to encourage self-reliance in any way we can. Conservatives do that when considering policy decisions that affect jobs, taxes, and regulation.
Ideology is simply the word we use to describe human thinking about things: “a set of opinions or beliefs”.
The way that conservatives think about their fellow humans is more compassionate in that conservatives aspire to see all humans reach their full potential through personal growth and contribution…and that is reflected in conservative policy.
“How is keeping the minimum wage at a historical low–or even talking about eliminating it entirely–a “hand up” to workers?”
An explosion of jobs creates a menu of opportunity and entry level chances to get started for people who are not suited to higher education, who could not afford higher education, or who prefer to work in the service or trade sectors. An explosion of jobs equals a greater opportunity for unskilled teens and people who don’t need to work but just want a part time job. It is more compassionate to offer the chance for a job and the chance to move up through hard work and gained experience that to offer them a fixed check with no hope of a future.
The communitarian welfare model is dying everywhere around the world because it cannot be sustained…not in fiscal terms and not in human terms. Human beings need to dream, to effort toward goals and to achieve goals to feel good about themselves. Welfare in too many cases leads in the opposite direction.
Compassion is not sympathy. In fact it is not about feelings at all, although they might accompany endeavors to assist others. True compassion requires more of us than simply feeling sorry for others. It requires thoughtful solutions that offer individuals opportunities to realize the best in themselves. Welfare works against that goal unless it is designed to improve a persons chances to improve his own life.
Geez Libby, if that joke is the extent of your knowledge about conservative policy it’s no wonder you fail to get it!
I wouldn’t go inviting examples of liberal compassion. Obamacare has made a mighty mess in millions of peoples lives…some of them very sick.
And what’s compassionate about:
“If you take out the killings, Washington actually has a very very low crime rate.” – Marion Barry, former mayor of Washington, DC
“”[Mary Jo] would have thought about arguably being a catalyst for the most successful Senate career in history … Who knows — maybe she’d feel it was worth it.” – Huff-Po blogger Melissa Lafsky
“The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re passing legislation that will cover 300 million American people in different ways, it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people.” – congressman John Dingle
CATO has a few very serious examples:
There ya go!
Jack: “Chris, the first thing that gets adjusted when minimum wage goes up is inflation. Yes, I know than minium wage at it’s current level is running behind inflation a bit, but it will never be a perfect siutation here.”
I’m glad to see you acknowledge that the minimum wage is lagging behind inflation, but I think you underestimate how badly that hurts your argument. We’ve had economic success in this country with a higher minimum wage than we have today (when adjusted for inflation). Why can’t we do that again?
“Minimum wage is just a stepping stone, always has been and always will be. I agree, it’s not a livable wage, but it was not intended to be.”
But again, it certainly used to be *more* liveable than it is now. Why should my generation accept a lower minimum wage than the one your generation had? How is that progress?
Also, regardless of what the minimum wage was “intended” to be, the fact is that today min. wage workers are older, more educated, and harder working than in days past. Shouldn’t they be getting paid more, too?
Why do conservatives feel like it’s OK to explicitly ask workers to do more while making less? How is that compassionate?
Chris, if it would make you feel better and it was within my power, I would grant you minimum wage adjusted for inflation to be spot on with my generation. But, as a point of fact, whatever the adjustment is it’s consumed quickly by a rise in inflation. Inflation is locked more or less in parody with minimum wage. Wish it were otherwise, but it isn’t.
Re #14 Dewey : “I will make sure I share this around town so people can see exactly what the Tea Party stands for.”
Please share it all over the place Dewey! I have posted this several times, you demented jackass — I AM NOT A MEMBER OF THE TEA PARTY. I have never been to a function or meeting. (Except once at the downtown plaza event where I hung out with the Chico News and Review hippy hacks.)
I have never given any Tea Party organization a single dime. If I were, in fact, to try and join I would likely be rejected (and rightly so).
I am not, nor ever have I ever been a “joiner”. The only political organization I regularly support is Disabled Americans for Firearms Rights.
http://www.dafr.org/
“Pie Guevara” is a satirical vehicle I developed several years ago to have some fun with. “He” remains a work in progress. Nevertheless this fictional avatar was developed for a purpose. I originally created him to mirror progressives like you to themselves. I don’t really know if “Pie” works or not. Probably not. Progressives tend to cast a blind eye to satirical mirrors that feature themselves. I wish I had the talent to build a humorous novel around “Pie” just to skewer gut churning, nausea inducing morons like you, Dewey.
“Pie Guevara” is a wholly owned subsidiary of “Walton Industries” which is in turn funded by the wholly for profit but completely unprofitable “Engulf and Devour, LLP.” I have long been courting Koch money. The bastards refuse to pony up.
To give credit where credit is due, “Pie Guevara” was inspired by National Lampoon artist and art director Michael Gross and Firesign Theater’s sci-fi comic classic “Don’t Crush That Dwarf, Hand Me The Pliers”.
My name is David Walton, I live in Chico and have been a resident here for over 30 years. You can follow my Pie Guevara avatar on Twitter, @pieguevara.
Who the hell are you, Dewey?
Please donate to Disabled Americans for Firearms Rights — http://www.dafr.org/
My bad! The above should have read “My name is David Walton, I live in Chico and have been a transient here for over 30 years.
Conservative believe the woman seen on TV with stage-four cancer should have been able to keep the insurance company she had and liked because it would have allowed her to continue her care with them.
Liberals believe we should provide for the bums living on our streets by choice so they can buy their drugs and booze, without requiring they perform any type of work.
The above is the difference between a hand-up and a hand-out.
Tina: “Read this Forbes article to better understand the argument.”
Tina, I have read that Forbes article before, as well as many other articles written by Michael Saltsman, and engaged with the argument many times. I understand the argument perfectly. That’s why I know it’s wrong.
It should be noted that Michael Saltsman is a lobbyist for the fast food industry and opposes virtually all worker protections, such as paid sick days:
http://waworkandfamily.org/tag/michael-saltsman/
He also accuses studies which reach different conclusions of “cherry-picking data” while using very shaky methods himself:
“In 1995, EPI lashed out at Princeton University professors David Card and Alan Krueger, after they published a survey of fast-food restaurants which found no loss in the number of jobs in New Jersey after implementing an increase in the state’s minimum wage. Berman accused Card and Krueger of using bad data, citing contrary figures that his own institute had collected from some of the same restaurants. But whereas Card and Krueger had surveyed 410 restaurants, Berman’s outfit only collected data from 71 restaurants and has refused to make its data publicly available so that other researchers can assess whether it “cherry-picked” restaurants to create a sample that would support its predetermined conclusions.”
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Employment_Policies_Institute
Saltsman’s conclusions that increasing the minimum wage increase unemployment and layoffs is not backed up by the best and most recent evidence.
http://www.epi.org/publication/teenage_jobs_and_the_raise_in_the_minimum_wage/
“Government policies have consequence in real peoples lives. What looks good on paper does not always translate to the real world.”
Tina, well-done studies accurately represent the consequences in the real world. You cite studies yourself when those studies support your point of view. Your problem is that you don’t know how to tell good methodology from bad methodology, so your entire criteria for determining the accuracy of a study is, “Does it agree with my preconceived beliefs?” If “yes,” you use that study and the credentials of its authors as airtight proof that your argument is right. If “no,” your attitude suddenly shifts into an anti-intellectual stance of “Psh, studies don’t mean nothin’ anyway, just a bunch of pointy-headed liberal academics livin’ in their ivory tower, don’t know nothin’ ’bout the real world.” This kind of double-talk does not go unnoticed by people who pay attention, Tina.
“Support for a minimum wage hike is not evidence of compassion. In fact it could just as easily be described as evidence of greed or laziness.”
Only if you define “greed” as “wanting to be paid fairly,” and “laziness” as “working just as hard for less real money than my parents made at my age.” Your repeated suggestions that min. wage workers who demand more are just lazy and greedy flies in the face of all available facts, and completely contradicts your insistence that you are a compassionate person.
Seriously, you complain about conservatives being characterized as lacking compassion for the poor, but what do you expect when you constantly say things like this? You want the right to make extremely ignorant and prejudiced statements about the poor without receiving any kind of criticism for it. It’s absurd.
When will Republicans realize that “Why can’t those lazy, ungrateful poor people see how much we’re trying to help them” is not a viable political strategy?
“But when it is claimed that conservatism is more compassionate the claim is made based on an observed affect in peoples lives from policies that flowed from conservative ideology. Personal knowledge of the positive changes in peoples lives when taxes were cut under Ronald Reagan is an example of how conservatism is compassionate. (I hope our readers will read the entire page)”
I’ve acknowledged that the Reagan tax cuts did have a stimulative effect, but your mistake is assuming that this means all tax cuts will always have positive effects–as if there’s no difference between cutting the top rate from 70% – 50%, and cutting it from 35% to whatever conservatives want it cut to. Obviously, those are two very different economic situations, requiring different solutions, and treating them as if they are the same is absurd. You know who agrees with me? The guys who invented the damn Reagan tax cuts:
“The truth is that the Reagan tax cut never came close to paying for itself, but neither was it expected to lose as much revenue as it did. And while it was highly stimulative, that is only because the economic and financial circumstances of the time made it so. Reenacting some version of the Reagan tax cut under today’s economic conditions would not bring about similar results…
…Making economic policy is not like making cookies and you can’t use a cookie-cutter approach. Policies need to be crafted to the circumstances. I believe Reagan’s policies were appropriate to the economic conditions of the early 1980s. Today’s economic problems require a very different set of policies.”
–Bruce Bartlett, economic adviser for Reagan and Bush Sr., former senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation
http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/bruce-bartlett/2343/why-reagan-tax-cut-worked-1981-and-why-it-wouldn%E2%80%99t-work-today
“The second thing was the perversion of supply side. Yes, there was a good idea that in certain circumstances, lower tax rates will encourage economic activity and savings. But when you make it a religion, when you make it a catechism and you say you cut taxes no matter what the circumstance, what the season, what the condition, then I think the whole idea has been perverted.
By getting off track over the last 30 years, the Republican Party has basically given up its historic view that the key thing was financial discipline, financial responsibility, and that we had to live within our means. Today, we have two free lunch parties and as a result, we’re borrowing ourselves into grave danger with each passing month and year…
…I find it unconscionable that the Republican leadership, faced with a 1.5 trillion deficit, could possibly believe that good public policy is to maintain tax cuts for the top 2 percent of the population who, after all, have benefited enormously from this phony boom we’ve had over the last 10 years as a result of the casino on Wall Street.
And I blame Paulson on it. I blame the Bush White House. They basically sold out the birthright of the Republican Party when they bailed out Wall Street unnecessarily, in a state of complete panic in September 2008. That’s really, at the end of the day, one of the greatest misfortunes in fiscal governance since the Reagan revolution tried to straighten things out beginning in 1980.”
–David Stockman, Reagan’s Director of the Office of Managment and Budget
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129052425
Tina: “Reflection about the choice of signing up for welfare or being offered a job”
For the last time: it is not an either/or choice! Stop characterizing it that way! It’s as if your mind physically rejects the fact that such a large portion of our nation’s workers are also on government assistance. When 80% of the workers at the country’s largest employer are on government assistance, how does that not ring alarm bells? What would it take to show you that this is not a choice for most people?
“It is more compassionate to encourage self-reliance in any way we can.”
Opposing the minimum wage does not, in any way, encourage self-reliance. It encourages dependency. Low-wage workers often have to go on government assistance to make ends meet. Raise their wages, decrease dependency. It’s that simple.
Again, you constantly assert that people on government assistance are doing something wrong, that they are on it because of some kind of character flaw, and if they would just improve themselves they’d no longer need assistance. That’s bullshit. The real culprit is corporations like Wal-Mart who are forcing you to foot the bill for their employee’s basic needs, even though they make more than enough in profits to raise wages without raising prices. You have no problem with them doing that.
“The way that conservatives think about their fellow humans is more compassionate in that conservatives aspire to see all humans reach their full potential through personal growth and contribution…and that is reflected in conservative policy.”
I’m sure you believe that. But it isn’t true. Keeping wages low is anathema to helping humans reach their full potential.
“An explosion of jobs creates a menu of opportunity and entry level chances to get started for people who are not suited to higher education, who could not afford higher education, or who prefer to work in the service or trade sectors. An explosion of jobs equals a greater opportunity for unskilled teens and people who don’t need to work but just want a part time job. It is more compassionate to offer the chance for a job and the chance to move up through hard work and gained experience that to offer them a fixed check with no hope of a future.”
This is a complete non-sequiter. Decreasing wages over the last 40 years has not led to an “explosion of jobs.”
“The communitarian welfare model”
I thought you said conservativism was about “nurturing ambitions in a community?” Why are you so opposed to the term “communitarian,” which you just started using incessantly a few weeks ago?
Jack: “Chris, if it would make you feel better and it was within my power, I would grant you minimum wage adjusted for inflation to be spot on with my generation.”
Thanks, I think that’s reasonable.
“But, as a point of fact, whatever the adjustment is it’s consumed quickly by a rise in inflation. Inflation is locked more or less in parody with minimum wage. Wish it were otherwise, but it isn’t.”
I don’t think that’s an established fact; there is a lot of debate over whether raising the minimum wage causes inflation or not, with most recent research actually concluding that it does not. Here are a few research-based arguments against the “minimum wage causes inflation” claim, if you’re interested:
http://truth-out.org/news/item/14050
http://www.wisegeek.com/does-raising-the-minimum-wage-cause-inflation.htm
Re #30 Chris : Blah, blah, blah … “The real culprit is corporations like Wal-Mart who are forcing you to foot the bill for their employee’s basic needs, even though they make more than enough in profits to raise wages without raising prices … blah, blah, blah”
Interesting. Chris is an expert on Wal-Mart profits and employee relations and employment practises. Just like all progressives. What basic needs does a corporation like Wal-Mart force us to foot the bill for? Please be specific as to how Wal-Mart salaries force anyone to do anything,
It is time we all admit that true compassion is the province of Big Brother progressives. George Will may have said it best on Fox News Sunday this week about the compassion of ObamaCare when quoting representative Steve Scalise —
“Well, I think Republicans have offered serious alternatives all along. But right now — no, I mean, the president, his name is on it. He did it without any other votes, so live with it.
One Republican put it brazenly, Scalise of Louisiana — congressman. He said the president is like a man who burns your house down and then shows up with an empty water bucket, and then delivers a lecture on how bad your house was before he burned it down.
I have no bone to pick one way or another about “compassion” as it applies to the minimum wage. I only offer this analysis —
“Liberal arguments for increasing the minimum wage have a fundamental flaw: They restrict the set of policy choices to either a minimum wage increase or doing nothing. That means they overlook the single most important federal policy for the poor: the Earned Income Tax Credit.
The EITC is a measure in the federal tax code to support the living standards of the poor without creating a “welfare trap” by diminishing the incentive to work. Economists widely consider the credit a success for reducing poverty while increasing employment. Created in 1975, the credit has been successively expanded in five times since. It is now the nation’s largest anti-poverty transfer program.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-03/two-reasons-not-to-raise-the-minimum-wage.html
I was just reading through comments to see if I had missed anything significant. (I’m having problems with my computer so I’m a bit behind)
Anyhoo…I came across this comment by Chris who was talking about evidence of “compassion”:
Chris: “but your mistake is assuming that this means all tax cuts will always have positive effect”
And your mistake is thinking that all tax cuts are the same.
Obama enacted several tax cuts…incentives with strings attached. These “cuts” produced nothing measurable!
Our business tax rates are low but they are not low compared to other countries.
Revenues also go down when people can’t find work…raising rates on those who produce jobs won’t accomplish job growth or greater revenue flows. Raising the minimum wage will not produce more jobs or more revenue for government. It will produce less opportunity and some inflation. Inflation has already been kept artificially low with QE policies. Wait till that ends….it will be soon.
You have been living under liberal progressive party tax and economic policy for over four years and things are miserable! What could tell you there is a decided lack of real compassion more than the rising poverty levels and joblessness under these policies?
After five years of misery, clinging to leftists polices that have failed again and again and again across decades begins to look like insanity.
When will enough be enough? Or are we talking about a permanent state of insanity?
Pie great input! People living in poverty can often get assistance from many sources and the EITC is one of them.
IRS:
Follow the link to see who qualifies for these tax credits.
A lot of the time when people from the left talk about the minimum wage they act as if minimum wage was a permanent condition for most people, it’s not. Most people move up in pay or find better jobs within a year or so. many have a spouses who also work so they aren’t “living” on minimum wage. Others qualify for benefits that increase their spending power.
I have trouble supporting ideas like raising the minimum wage when the people who want to force this increase through the government are also for all kinds of policies that would increase growth and jobs! they are against the things that would make opportunity available through natural industry and investment but all for government force. To me this is pure insanity.
Chris: “regardless of what the minimum wage was “intended” to be, the fact is that today min. wage workers are older, more educated, and harder working than in days past. Shouldn’t they be getting paid more, too?”
So wage levels should be tied to age, education and hard work rather than the value of the work performed or the ability of the employer to pay?
This is the mind of the dependent. those who actually pay people have a much different perspective.
Entry level positions are being filled by people with higher education because of the Democrat owned economic policies of the last four plus years. The educated are being given jobs (taking jobs) that the unskilled usually get…how does that make you feel, Chris?
How compassionate, or smart, is it to create an economy where the college educated work in minimum wage jobs because that’s all that is available to them?
Some of the elderly are working these jobs for similar reasons. Many of them can’t or won’t retire because they fear for their future…more loss of investment to higher taxes and possibly another bubble or stock market crash. No way to earn even from savings investment with the artificially kept low interest rates. The promise of inflation while living on a fixed income.
Harder working? By what standard? I’ve not met too many young people today with a strong work ethic. The vast majority are just the opposite. Many of them have an inflated sense of their abilities and worth. Everyone’s a rock star. I will admit that those who do have a good strong work ethic are right up there with their grandparents and great grandparents. Every now and then we run across them at a fast food counter and they stand out…and are usually gone very soon, probably to a better position.
Technology has made work easier and faster, therefore more can be produced, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that people are harder working. It takes me a very small fraction of time to do my work now than it did 25 years ago and it’s much easier too.
People get paid for the work they perform given the ability of the employer to pay. A lot of jobs at Wall-Mart are entry level in terms of skills and need for training. those jobs will never be worth what you think you should earn because you are educated. Wall-Mart would soon be out of business of they had to pay you what you think you should get.
Chris if steps had been taken to grow the economy instead of growing the government bureaucracy you would be having a very different experience by now. I do hope that one day soon you will have a chance to experience a growing vibrant economy with lots of opportunities to find a good paying job.
No, Tina … I’m not asking for examples of liberal policy gone awry. (We never said we was perfect.) I’m asking for examples of conservative policy with compassionate, constructive results. You keep saying you are, but you ain’t got nothin’ … have you?
Come on … I’m waiting for you to try and sell us, what? … the Iraq War? No, I don’t think so. The deregulation of the financial services industry? Definitely not.
Ummmmmm? Ummmmmm? I know, there was back when ol’ Herbert Hoover sat on his hands for two years while 30 million people wound up destitute in the road!
Just heard on Fox Walmart is promoting 160,000 of its 2.2 million employees. Now that’s how the free market is supposed to work.
Not able to locate an article with the figures given, but here’s one dated last month with lesser ones.
“Wal-Mart has said that more than 475,000 of its employees make more than $26,000 a year, leading critics to point out that many additional employees must make less than that amount.
Wal-Mart said it offers competitive wages and the ability to build a career, citing that 75% of store management started as hourly workers.
“Like most Americans, our associates want good jobs and access to a better life,” CEO Bill Simon said in a statement.
More than 40,000 assistant managers earn $50,000 a year, on average, while more than 4,000 store managers earn an average of $170,000 annually, according to Wal-Mart.
Still, the vast majority of Wal-Mart’s employees – roughly 1 million nationwide — are hourly workers, according to a company spokesperson.
Criticism isn’t new for the country’s largest private employer, which has faced labor protests organized by the United Food & Commercial Workers union, calling for a minimum full-time pay of at least $25,000 a year.”
http://money.cnn.com/2013/10/29/news/wal-mart-workers/index.html
Re Chris: False. Conservatism is not compassionate, nor is liberalism. Ideologies cannot be compassionate, only people can be.
Bull(s). Conservatism is nowhere as near cruel, evil, incompetent, and demented as Fascism, Communism, Marxism, Nazi-ism, Progressive-ism or Obama-ism or Islam.
“A woman known as “Lucy” calls in to the KLBJ radio station in Austin, Tx last month to weigh in on the ongoing discussion of the welfare class. Lucy speaks candidly of why she will never work, because no matter what she will get her check, and even admits her call to the station is made on an Obamaphone…..it gets worse. Listen to this call-in that will blow your mind…”
http://freepatriot.org/2013/11/18/listen-welfare-mom-speaks-candidly-about-why-she-will-never-work-and-still-collect-a-check/
Conservative compassion —
A time for choosing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBswFfh6AY
#44 Pie, Great man, great speech. Mind blowing so many issues existed back then we’re still dealing with today.
Libby: “No, Tina … I’m not asking for examples of liberal policy gone awry. (We never said we was perfect.) I’m asking for examples of conservative policy with compassionate, constructive results.”
Libby I have done this several times on Post Scripts, perhaps you just missed it. The biggest example of all is the Reagan economic policy, derided by Democrats (Lied about too). Under Reagan poor people, including poor black people moved into the middle class. Everyone did better because the economy was thriving.
I don’t have time now but I will re-post the stats for you again if I can find the time this afternoon.
Libby: ” I know, there was back when ol’ Herbert Hoover sat on his hands for two years while 30 million people wound up destitute in the road!”
No, Libby, Hoover made a few very bad decisions, no question about it, so you can let go of that one. But his decisions aren’t any worse than many of the decisions made by Democrats through the years.
According to CATO his rush to do something was disasterous!
On the other hand there is evidence that Reagans policies led to real gains for blacks,
First Things – Cato
There is also that little natty reality that conservatives have been more generous when it comes to personal giving of both time and money. This may have shifted a bit since all the liberal billionaires have decided to donate their money to things like the United Nations. It’s questionable how much actual good will come of it for individuals and how much will be laundered into the pockets of corrupt politicians.
Dewey: “And pappy Bush profits off spying on US citizens!”
Your skewed and ill-informed opinions know no bounds!
Response:
Really? Have ya ever heard of the Caryle Group which owns Booz Allen! I stand by that statement. All it would take is a quick google. Where is your source?
Why not admit facts? Google Caryle group and Booz Allen pick one!
Question do you really not know what is going on due to the privatization of Gov and who is making the money? Or are ya just mad I pointed that out?
Sorry we privatized Gov and they start wars for profit cause it’s all about wall street profits! All Administrations are guilty both Democrat and Republican
Why all the hate for the truth?
Chris nailed it by the way!
Why all this hate? The whole problem with the world is not everybody except the Tea Party.
Remember in the primary debates when the gentleman yelled “Let them Die!” That does not sound very compassionate to me. He was from the heritage foundation as most the audience was planted with them.
Tina, I’ll do it. I’ll beat the dead horse. You still got nothing.
You’ve already had it amply demonstrated to ya. Reagan’s tax cuts (which temporarily boosted the economy) coupled with his craven refusal to make matching cuts to social, defense, you name it, spending, totally iradicated any gain … to anybody (except, of course, the capital gains crowd).
You are going to have to do better. We want to see conservative policy, carried through with integrity, to a constructive result … for the little people. I ain’t holding my breath.