Posted by Tina
A small Charter School in South Carolina has been participating for two years in an international organization’s Christmas outreach to bring Christmas gifts to disadvantaged children. The school children will not participate this year due to a lawsuit threat by the American Humanist Association on behalf of one parent who made a complaint. A school administrator says the schools legal and operational budgets are too small to even consider defending against such a suit. They have chosen to cancel the activity.
It’s unfortunate that a single parent would go so far as to use our legal system to intimidate and harass others in this manner. The stated charges are little more than an excuse to deny others freedom of expression.
Students at East Point Academy have been decorating shoe boxes and filling them with small gifts in their spare time at home. They were supposed to bring them to school so that Samaritan’s Purse, a Christian relief and evangelism organization, could collect and distribute them to poor and disadvantaged children around the world.
Participation in the activity was entirely voluntary, did not include religious materials or symbols, and was not connected to classroom assignments or grades. But despite these careful measures one parent took offense and brought his complaint to the attention of the American Humanist Association. Humanists apparently can’t abide goodwill offerings by school children if they are tied in any way to a Christian group. According to a letter sent to the school by local AHA legal offices this activity is a breach of the Constitution’s establishment clause as the following quotes demonstrate:
…”Because the purpose and effect of Operation Christmas Child is to induce impoverished children to convert to Christianity, the school’s promotion of this program violates the Constitution.” … “It is a clear constitutional violation for administrators of a public school to push students to participate in a proselytizing religious program”
Were the students induced or pushed to participate? Not according to the school. Were their acts of giving a promotional effort on behalf of Samaritan’s Purse? Hardly. Does this small voluntary act of kindness constitute the establishment of religion by the state? Are they kidding!
Voluntary, individual participation in this program represents an opportunity to reach out at Christmastime…to engage in an act of kindness and goodwill.
The AHA is not concerned about Constitutional breaches. They do not seriously believe that anyone at the school is trying to establish a state religion. The AHA is simply using this complaint by a single parent as an excuse to harass and bully the Charter School and the children who chose to participate in the holiday activity by degrading the activity and demeaning the children’s intentions:
“The boxes of toys are essentially a bribe, expressly used to pressure desperately poor children living in developing countries to convert to Christianity, and are delivered with prayers, sermons, evangelical tracts and pressure to convert.”
Pressure is a pretty strong word to describe the joy of giving gifts to children even if those gifts will be delivered with a sermon and prayer.
And “convert” from what, total ignorance about the Christian faith? Is that such a terrible thing? And what right do the humanist have to stand between a child and this opportunity?
I doubt that the humanists involved know that Christianity is a religion that must be chosen. A sermon is educational but faith is a matter of personal conviction and choice. It is impossible to force faith on anyone. While it’s true the children will be told Bible stories and encouraged to the choose the Christian faith by people who believe it’s very doubtful that they will be coerced and pressured. Nobody is intent on browbeating children.
A spokesperson from Samaritan’s Purse explains the purpose of their “Operation Christmas Child” ministry:
“We are a project that aims to celebrate the true meaning of Christmas — the birth of Jesus,” Wells said in a statement. “Our purpose is to show God’s love in a tangible way to needy children around the world.”
It seems to me that the people doing all of the pressuring and coercion are the single parent who complained and the incredibly intolerant humanist organization. What the heck frightens them so much? That children might choose to think differently than they do? That children might experience love and joy in receiving a gift at Christmas time from another child? That faith in Christ and the Christmas holiday is being kept alive and well by this activity? So what!
Intimidation lawsuits that threaten the viability and functioning of schools are more than annoying. There should be a way of discouraging such activity. A threat of counter-suit might be the solution but includes an inherent risk. Perhaps the Christian faith should start a fund to lend support to schools being harassed in this fashion. No Americans should back down from intolerant bullies who would, without a moments hesitation, seek to silence free expression in our schools. That’s just not how it works in America.
Freedom people…it matters.
Source: Tod Starnes, FOX News
Humanist Manifesto III,
a successor to the Humanist Manifesto of 1933*
Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism,(theological belief) affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.
The lifestance of Humanism—guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience—encourages us to live life well and fully.
There is more to their Manifesto, but they clearly left out their most important progressive belief:
“If I don’t like it, then no one should”
Tina, I am thinking of asking my students to do something similar, only it will be done around Ramadan. The charity that will disperse their donations/gifts to needy children will attach quotes from the Quran and pleas for children to accept Islam as the one true path. Of course, participation is voluntary, but students will be encouraged to participate by awarding a pizza party to the class who provides the most donations.
You’re cool with that, right?
This article totally buries the lede, the the point where in the first half, I was totally on the side of the school. Of course if all the charity was doing was giving gifts to needy children at Christmas time, the AHA’s lawsuit would be frivolous. But since the charity does proselytize, the school has no right to encourage students to donate to that charity. Doing so amounts to a clear government endorsement of religion. This is an open-and-shut case. If the school were to fight the lawsuit, they would lose.
The parents who complained have valid reason to do so. According to some stories, parents were not even made aware of the religious nature of the charities their children were asked to donate to. If this were any other religion, this wouldn’t even be an open question, and Todd Starnes sure as hell wouldn’t be defending the school–he’d be complaining about how our kids are being indoctrinated into Islam and the school is following Sharia law. And for once, he’d actually have a point.
The parents and the AHA are not “harassing” or “intimidating” anyone. They are standing up for the constitutional rights of children. Schools have no right to ask students to donate to a religious charity, even if participation is voluntary. And they certainly have no right to offer incentives like pizza parties for doing so as at least one school did.
These schools can easily find a similar charity that does not proselytize.
Chris: “The charity that will disperse their donations/gifts to needy children will attach quotes from the Quran and pleas for children to accept Islam as the one true path…You’re cool with that, right?”
As long as students are instructed to simply decorate the boxes and not add religious symbols or quotes in the gifts I am cool with that.
If, however, you suggested such a voluntary activity that did not include religious symbols or words but was associated with an Islamic charity that was declared in our courts as an unindicted co-conspirator in terrorist acts I would object. I wouldn’t ask students to associate with an organization that has been shown to aid and abet terror groups.
We’re talking about children reaching out to children in a non religious manner.
Islam does have one problem in this regard that other religions do not currently have. The great leaders of the religion are not all in agreement but many of them in positions of great power and influence are in favor of Islamic rule across the entire globe. Some preach the love of death as greater than the love of life and demand death of followers to that end in the name of Allah. Examples go back to the 600’s right after the religion was founded:
Suhail khan Exposed:
Israel National News:
Catholicism once had its zealots but even they did not send their children and women as suicide bombers of death with the intent to wipe entire nations of people off the face of the earth.
My objection would not be to religion peacefully shared or practiced but to the fact that the zealots of Islam practice it as religious, legal, and political tyranny, violent in practice and totally incompatible with freedom.
“They are standing up for the constitutional rights of children.”
Bologna! They are not standing up for the rights of those who were interested in participating in this gesture voluntarily, a gesture that wasn’t even conducted during school hours but on personal time.
Not a single student or parent was coerced in any way to participate. Since when is it called “protection of rights” to deny self-expression? What about the rights of the many who were eager and happy to participate? Why is voluntary participation with instructions against adding religious words or symbols conducted only on free time not enough “bending” to accommodate the humanists? Why are we not noticing how the humanist is bullying and intimidating children who want to express themselves in this way with their parents permission? How far do these control freaks go before we are left to hide in our homes like Christians must do in China? And how okay are you with that! (It wasn’t a question but a retort.)
”
Nov 17, 2013
11:28 am
#2 Chris :
Tina, I am thinking of asking my students to do something similar, only it will be done around Ramadan. The charity that will disperse their donations/gifts to needy children will attach quotes from the Quran and pleas for children to accept Islam as the one true path. Of course, participation is voluntary, but students will be encouraged to participate by awarding a pizza party to the class who provides the most donations.
You’re cool with that, right?
This article totally buries the lede, the the point where in the first half, I was totally on the side of the school. Of course if all the charity was doing was giving gifts to needy children at Christmas time, the AHA’s lawsuit would be frivolous. But since the charity does proselytize, the school has no right to encourage students to donate to that charity. Doing so amounts to a clear government endorsement of religion. This is an open-and-shut case. If the school were to fight the lawsuit, they would lose.
The parents who complained have valid reason to do so. According to some stories, parents were not even made aware of the religious nature of the charities their children were asked to donate to. If this were any other religion, this wouldn’t even be an open question, and Todd Starnes sure as hell wouldn’t be defending the school–he’d be complaining about how our kids are being indoctrinated into Islam and the school is following Sharia law. And for once, he’d actually have a point.
The parents and the AHA are not “harassing” or “intimidating” anyone. They are standing up for the constitutional rights of children. Schools have no right to ask students to donate to a religious charity, even if participation is voluntary. And they certainly have no right to offer incentives like pizza parties for doing so as at least one school did.
“These schools can easily find a similar charity that does not proselytize.”
Humanists get to decide what school children can or cannot do when it comes to gift giving and that doesn’t sound like proselytizing to you? Chris, you topple easily to tyranny.
This act is a petty and absurd use of our legal system by zealots of the humanist religion to restrict free expression. Oh yes, it is a religion…it is the religion of self as god and it is their intent to rid this world of other religions.
The following is an opening quote from:
“HOW TO GET RID OF RELIGION, AND WHY,” by Floris van den Berg, Director, Center for Inquiry Low Countries
Lecture to the Ethical Society, 19 January 2009
The full version of this talk is available at: http://verlichtingshumanisten.web-log.nl
“Strategies to liberate” is a nice turn of phrase, quite similar to those spoken by Nazi’s, communists, and Islamists all over the world.
Freedom matters not just to humanists but to Christians, Jews, Protestants, Islamists, atheists and on down the line. Christians have been bending over backwards for decades to accommodate other religions as well as those who oppose religion. Unfortunately there are those few who are not as generous or tolerant.
Off Topic: On Nov. 8, 2013 a suit was filed against HHS declaring ObamaCare is unconstitutional since it was started in the Senate and the Supreme Court ruled the penalty was a tax.
UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT
MATTHEW SISSEL,
Plaintiff-Appellant,
v.
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, et al.
Defendants-Appellees.
http://www.pacificlegal.org/document.doc?id=1038
Tina: “As long as students are instructed to simply decorate the boxes and not add religious symbols or quotes in the gifts I am cool with that.”
Well, I wouldn’t. The school would still be collecting gifts for the purpose of sending them through a religious agency that has the purpose of using the gifts as a recruiting tool. That is a violation of the separation of church and state. Period.
“We’re talking about children reaching out to children in a non religious manner.”
No, that’s simply incorrect. The children’s gifts are going to be attached to scriptures and other materials with the purpose to convert. The children and parents may not have any religious motivation, but the organization does.
“Bologna! They are not standing up for the rights of those who were interested in participating in this gesture voluntarily, a gesture that wasn’t even conducted during school hours but on personal time.”
The collection was done by the school. That is enough to amount to a breach of the separation of church and state.
“Not a single student or parent was coerced in any way to participate.”
The AHA claims that students were offered incentives such as pizza parties and free dress days. You’ve cried “coercion” over less. Public school students should not be incentivized to participate in religious charities. That is against the law.
“Since when is it called “protection of rights” to deny self-expression? What about the rights of the many who were eager and happy to participate?”
You realize they still have those rights, don’t you? No one has shut the charity down. No one is trying to stop kids and parents from voluntarily donating. The school just can’t have any part in it. That is fair. It ensures that all contributions are truly voluntarily and not incentivized by the school.
“Why is voluntary participation with instructions against adding religious words or symbols conducted only on free time not enough “bending” to accommodate the humanists?”
Because a public school is asking kids to donate to a religious charity, and that is against the law and the constitution. It’s that simple. What part of this do you not understand?
“Why are we not noticing how the humanist is bullying and intimidating children who want to express themselves in this way with their parents permission?”
Because that’s not even close to what’s happening, you drama queen. No child has been bullied or intimidated. Again, every child who wanted to donate and has their parents’ permission still can. They just can’t do it through the school.
“How far do these control freaks go before we are left to hide in our homes like Christians must do in China?”
This is so stupid it doesn’t even warrant a response.
“Humanists get to decide what school children can or cannot do when it comes to gift giving and that doesn’t sound like proselytizing to you?”
You’re not making any sense. Again, this isn’t about “what school children can do.” It’s about what *schools* can do. And humanists didn’t make this decision. The constitution did.
“Chris, you topple easily to tyranny.”
And you have abused that word so much it has lost all meaning.
I’ve made these shoe gift boxes and collected donations at a table in front of Big Lots. I can assure you the only writing on the wrapped gift box is to say if it’s for a boy or girl and no religious message is included.
This is a similar program to the gift trees we see all over during the holidays. The only difference is it’s a global project instead of a local one that gives a gift to a child who will get little to nothing.
In reply to post number 5 …. Bah humbug!….
Thank you Tina for bringing this to the readers attention here at Post Script’s.
To help remedy the malady of the overreaching progressive mindset, a little boy and girl will receive a gift box in the name of the readers of Post Scripts.
I would like to challenge other readers to do so as well, those who might and can help prove compassion is still alive in the hearts of more Americans.
Also if you can and seeking something closer to home, the fisherhouse.org is a group who have done wonderful things for our veterans.
I fully believe there are way more caring Americans than the number of Americans who possess a narcissistic attitude.
Chris: “the purpose of sending them through a religious agency that has the purpose of using the gifts as a recruiting tool.”
Wow. Not only have you decided the psychological thinking behind this event as something sinister, an evil plot to manipulate children, you have also discounted the circumstances that brought these children to the place they are…some may be experiencing a certain stability and having their fundamental needs met for the first time in their lives. If these gifts add a little warmth and kindness from kids in America who am I to object?
“That is a violation of the separation of church and state.”
And that is a lefty line that is so filled with BS as to choke any freedom loving American! The separation has to do with the government PREVENTING free expression or establishing a state religion. Children singing songs, learning about religions, sending gifts to children through religious organizations are all expressions and as long as it is voluntary the state should have nothing to say. One parent can object by having his child do something else in his free time or not doing anything at all. FREEDOM means that children can refuse to participate in such an activity and that is the best protection of all!
The lawsuit is a radical attempt to push religion out all together. They know the schools and school districts don’t have the funds or the legal means readily available to fight these suits even though the Constituion is on their side.
American who love freedom had better start backing their schools and standing up to these judicial bullies because the next step in their ultimate quest will be much more intrusive to our fundamental freedoms than is this frivolous lawsuit.
“The children’s gifts are going to be attached to scriptures and other materials with the purpose to convert.”
That’s a very strong accusation delivered with no proof at all that this is what happens. Okay Mr. stickler for the facts how do you know that the gifts will “be attached to scriptures and other materials with the purpose to convert.”
And what does the word convert mean to you in the context of Christianity. It sounds suspiciously like you think children will be punished or harmed if they don’t do what they are told. If that’s what you think you have the wrong religion…and the wrong politics. The radical left spits that word as if it were poison that children are forced to take and that is not so. What they cannot stand is the thought that a child might genuinely CHOOSE to become a Christian because they see themselves, and their ideas, as superior. Bigots! Narcissists! Control freaks that believe if they ran the world and eliminated religion everybody would be at peace….a lie that denies the nature of human beings who have the capacity for both good and evil and who have free will to choose either on a moment to moment basis.
“The AHA claims that students were offered incentives such as pizza parties and free dress days.”
Does the AHA also insist that children who don’t participate will be shunned and excluded from these perks? that’s what the AHA would do!
“The school just can’t have any part in it. That is fair.”
No that is stupid and petty when all but one student wanted to participate. Whose school is it anyway? The governments? Is that where we’ve come to in America…that government owns us and dictates all decisions at the local level? If the kids and parents voted how would this turn out?
“Because a public school is asking kids to donate to a religious charity, and that is against the law and the constitution.”
I disagree. That decision represents a manipulation of the meaning of the law using a quote from a letter and not the language of the Constitution…for the same purpose that is behind this threat of lawsuit…to drive all religious morality out of the public square starting with the schools (young minds). The religiosity of the humanists and atheists wants totalitarian control.
“No child has been bullied or intimidated.”
Covertly they have. Lefties never do their bullying in up front ways. These children were told by the school (Not the AHA) that their kindness would not be allowed but you can be sure they are aware of the lawsuit and the fact that a single students parent(s) objections has the power to put a stop to this gesture. Don’t tell me they don’t feel an injustice has been visited on them at some level.
Children whose parents were a lot closer to the founding era than are we taught their children, including in the schools, with the Bible…they were not worried that it would cause an establishment of religion by the federal government. I am not worried that distribution of secular appearing gifts by our schools will harm children or establish a state religion. The objection, and the lawsuit, is still frivolous, petty and politically and ideologically driven.
Peggy I agree with you. The truth about the holiday is that it has been secularized anyway.
The school and the families will have to find another way to get these gifts to the organization but the intimidation and harassment will continue by the AHA at every turn. No wonder people are pulling their kids out of public schools. Not only are too many of them receiving an inadequate education they are also being denied basic rights over trumped up constitutional objections used as a “tool” to covertly proselytize humanist ideas.
Harold: “Thank you Tina for bringing this to the readers attention here at Post Script’s.”
Happy to do it Harold!
“To help remedy the malady of the overreaching progressive mindset, a little boy and girl will receive a gift box in the name of the readers of Post Scripts.”
What a wonderful idea…thank you for your kind support of poor and disadvantaged children and Post Scripts!
You know the “season of giving” is a secular event in America. You don’t have to be Christian to participate. those of us who are Christians welcome the blessing of giving through acts of kindness. We realize that faith is a deeply personal conviction and most of us don’t ask for credentials of anyone who chooses to give.
I just think threatening a lawsuit over something like this is a terrible use of the justice system and a very petty attitude that may have ulterior motives attached. Our schools have enough to deal with without suffering fools who can’t abide this simple expression of giving…on a voluntary basis!.
I believe the issue is not it is a Christian group but a corrupt org that’s sole purpose is to convert people. The school was only asked to cut ties with the organization. Why does the school not find another org? Cause their purpose it not genuine.
What did GW just do last week? Speak at an elite Jesus for Jews fund raiser to raise money for an org that has a sole purpose of converting Jews to Christianity? ya see he is an adult. Israel Jesus and Jews are all wrong?
Israel is the Holy land and they are entitled to their Religion as well.
The evangelical religion is one of the most corrupt religions out there. They distort the Bible. History has shown that through the years.
My bloodline last name was changed and taken to the grave due to a crazy nutjob evangelical preacher! and it goes to the mayflower!
The kids can do the goodwill. But I agree if the organization is manipulating poor children it is not a gift.
Toys for tots does a great job! They could take the children anywhere to give the gifts.
Propaganda is not cool. There is a separation of Church and State for a reason.
Even the catholic church has killed millions in the past. Wars seem to be religious tribes fighting for the one and only true religions theirs!
If anyone calls the book of Mormon a religion they are a hypocrite. Jesus did not come to Missouri and a 200 year old book is not the gospel.
True religion has been corrupted for greed and power of Churches. The new world is entering this in it’s infancy.
History shows organized religion has been distorted to control populations for hundreds of years.
Religions are private, and one is free to peacefully live any religion not force it.
The whole basis for many of our families coming to America was to escape the famine and violence of controlling religions!
OK so let’s first read the actual letter Ya know that source thang again that does not apply to all in a democratic way.
http://americanhumanist.org/system/storage/2/23/7/4719/letter_re_Operation_Christmas_Child_Columbia_SC.pdf
I happen to agree. So lets disagree but the whole problem is the separation of church and state and a very corrupt organization.
I will fight for religious freedom for people not any company to dictate. History has shown us this lesson.
And I also Blame Nixon for making the political deal with the most corrupt of religions. Now we have a bunch of nutjobs in office!
keep your religion to yourself you are free to live it! America was a place to escape the tyranny of political religions.
The bible is being twisted and is mostly misunderstood.
Jesus gave us freewill and everyone has to answer for themself.
The Children are free to use their gifts.
The Children are free to celebrate any winter Holiday
Separation of Church and state and quite frankly Real Religion will not be found in America’s corrupt tax evading political Churches.
Preacher’s preached politics, Political messages appeared on their Marquette! Sorry that changes religion to politics until it stops.
And quite frankly I could care less about the issue. Those states that are trying to create a state religion and base laws off it can deal with their own aftermath.
Separation of Church and State was exactly for these reasons to save us from the Tyranny of organized religion ruling our country and they are battling to change that! All out war from me until they stop!
Separation of Church and State
Tax any church that participates in Politics! No more preachers making millions teaching politics for the 1%.
Too bad very few even understand the bible
If the Book of Mormon is a religion I think I’ll write one and teach it tax free LOL
I have to share a story about an employee who donated several gifts to one of the local giving trees. Because this is local I’m going to leave out the details. What ended up happening is the family that received these awesome gifts was so grateful they harrangued the place that hosted the tree for the givers identity so they could thank her. Which they did. They were very appreciative. Then they contacted her several times last year asking her to give them things.
I was also involved with adopting a family with a local organization. We delivered the donated goods to their home. It was a pretty nice house (supposedly the family was living with grandparents). I then saw the family shopping at Best Buy the next day.
I want to help people who have genuine need during this season, not genuine greed.
It’s really very, very, very simple. You want to proselytize Christianity to alien children, you do it through your Sunday School, not your public school.
What is the big, fat, hairy deal? Why do y’all find it so difficult to keep this straight?
Dewey: “Why does the school not find another org?”
I don’t know that they haven’t.
What evidence do you have that the organization, “Smaritans Purse,” is corrupt? I want hard evidence!!! A negative attitude is not sufficient!
“ya see he is an adult. Israel Jesus and Jews are all wrong? … Israel is the Holy land and they are entitled to their Religion as well.”
I support Israel. Evangelicals support Israel. The organization “Jews for Jesus” supports Israel as well. You think people should be able to choose for themselves…so do we. Christians invite people to consider the prophecies in the Bible (Old Testament) as they relate to the life of Christ and his teachings (New Testiment). They do not demand conversion…that is not how faith works for Jews or Christians. anyone who says otherwise is wrong. What exactly is your problem?
“My bloodline last name was changed and taken to the grave due to a crazy nutjob evangelical preacher! and it goes to the mayflower!”
Sorry to hear that Dewey. I don’t think its fair, however, to condemn all evangelicals due to the wrongs committed by one man or even a group of men/women.
Are you aware that you can change your name back through the courts?
In any case I doubt if G*d has forgotten your name.
My husbands family goes back to the Mayflower too…small world. My ancestors were trappers of the time came down from Canada.
Thanks for providing a link to the letter Dewey. That represents real participation. Jack and I do our best but this is, after all, a hobby for us so when our friends help out in this way it is a positive for everyone.
Here is a message from one “Operation Christmas Child” webpage. I have highlighted the significant words:
Tina: “Wow. Not only have you decided the psychological thinking behind this event as something sinister, an evil plot to manipulate children,”
Wow. That’s not even close to anything I said.
Here’s the part of my comment you were responding to:
“The school would still be collecting gifts for the purpose of sending them through a religious agency that has the purpose of using the gifts as a recruiting tool.”
Please show me the part of my comment where I accused the charity of being “sinister” and launching “an evil plot to manipulate children.”
I am not criticizing the charity for trying to recruit others into Christianity. I personally am against evangelizing, but I understand that many Christians see it as a moral duty, and they are well within their rights to try and reach as many people as they can. Doing so while giving gifts to needy children is as good a way to do this as any, and I admire there charitable efforts. I have absolutely no problem with the charity doing what it does, and I haven’t expressed any criticism against them, so for you to take my comments as some kind of attack on them is a failure of reading comprehension on your part.
My only problem is with a government-funded school asking students to donate to a religious charity.
“you have also discounted the circumstances that brought these children to the place they are…some may be experiencing a certain stability and having their fundamental needs met for the first time in their lives. If these gifts add a little warmth and kindness from kids in America who am I to object?”
Again, that’s not what I’m objecting to. I’ve been very clear about my actual objections. You are not paying attention to the actual arguments I’ve made, you are arguing with a strawman.
“Children singing songs, learning about religions, sending gifts to children through religious organizations are all expressions and as long as it is voluntary the state should have nothing to say.”
The first two I am totally with you on. Children being asked to sing songs with religious themes for choir or learning about religion is well within a school’s educational purpose. Sending gifts to children through religious organizations is not. The school can find a non-religious charity to partner with.
“The lawsuit is a radical attempt to push religion out all together. They know the schools and school districts don’t have the funds or the legal means readily available to fight these suits even though the Constituion is on their side.”
The Constitution is not on their side. You should familiarize yourself with recent Supreme Court cases before you say things like this. If the schools fought this lawsuit, they would lose, because having children send the gifts through an organization that is going to add scriptures to the gifts is a violation of the separation of church and state. It is also deceptive to parents and students if they were not informed that this was going to be attached to their gifts.
“American who love freedom had better start backing their schools and standing up to these judicial bullies because the next step in their ultimate quest will be much more intrusive to our fundamental freedoms than is this frivolous lawsuit.”
But you always say that. There’s always some “next step” that the slipper slopers warn us about. It never happens.
“That’s a very strong accusation delivered with no proof at all that this is what happens. Okay Mr. stickler for the facts how do you know that the gifts will “be attached to scriptures and other materials with the purpose to convert.””
Gee, I don’t know, maybe because *that’s what you wrote in this very article?*
“And what does the word convert mean to you in the context of Christianity. It sounds suspiciously like you think children will be punished or harmed if they don’t do what they are told.”
It may sound that way to you because you have a weird need to interpret the words of people you disagree with in the least charitable way possible. My use of the word “convert” suggests nothing of the kind. I was raised a Christian, Tina; your constant attempts to twist my fairly innocuous words into deep-seated bigoted allegations against Christians are unfair, and based on nothing real.
“If that’s what you think you have the wrong religion…and the wrong politics.”
Well then why not actually ask what I think and pay attention, rather than make such wild assumptions about my beliefs?
“he radical left spits that word as if it were poison that children are forced to take and that is not so. What they cannot stand is the thought that a child might genuinely CHOOSE to become a Christian because they see themselves, and their ideas, as superior.”
This is just ridiculous. I haven’t even said that the organization shouldn’t try to convert people! That is their right. But a public school shouldn’t have any part of those efforts. Why is that controversial?
If the gifts were sent via an atheist or humanist organization that attached tracts by Richard Dawkins denouncing God, my opinion would be the same. It would be just as unconstitutional for a public school to ask children to donate through this organization, even if it was voluntary.
“Does the AHA also insist that children who don’t participate will be shunned and excluded from these perks? that’s what the AHA would do!”
This is a non-sequiter. The point is that children were incentivized to donate to a religious charity. That is against the law. Period.
“No that is stupid and petty when all but one student wanted to participate. Whose school is it anyway? The governments? Is that where we’ve come to in America…”
I’m sorry…what?
Of course the school is run by the government. That’s what public schools are.
Did I really just have to explain that to you? Because that is mind-boggling.
“that government owns us and dictates all decisions at the local level?”
You’re not making sense. The government cannot decide whether you, personally, can donate to this charity.
They also cannot legally *encourage* you to donate to this charity through the school system.
That is 100% fair.
“I disagree.”
I understand that you disagree, but that’s only because you don’t know what the law says.
“Covertly they have. Lefties never do their bullying in up front ways.”
Right, because we just like to leave little secret clues that only super-smart conservative detectives can see with their secret decoder rings. We’re like the Riddler that way.
Or,
Your allegations lack evidence because they aren’t true.
Occam’s Razor would suggest the latter.
“These children were told by the school (Not the AHA) that their kindness would not be allowed”
Why do you say things that you know to be false? For the eleventy-billionth time: NO ONE WAS DISALLOWED FROM DONATING. No child is being prevented from donating to this charity. They just cannot do so through the school.
“but you can be sure they are aware of the lawsuit and the fact that a single students parent(s) objections has the power to put a stop to this gesture.”
No one has the power to “put a stop to this gesture.” No one is asking for that power. You are saying things that you know are false. That is called lying.
“Don’t tell me they don’t feel an injustice has been visited on them at some level.”
Some may feel that way, but that doesn’t mean those feelings are valid. There is no injustice in telling a kid that they can donate to the charity on their own time, and the school can no longer be a middleman between the kids and the charity. If that strikes a certain stripe of Christian conservatives as some kind of injustice, I would suggest that’s because they, as a group, have never experienced real injustice before.
“Children whose parents were a lot closer to the founding era than are we taught their children, including in the schools, with the Bible…they were not worried that it would cause an establishment of religion by the federal government.”
Well, of course they weren’t. Children whose parents were a lot closer to the founding era than we are also taught their children that slavery, segregation, and women’s disenfranchisement were right, and they did so without worrying that this was in any way a violation of the Constitution. That doesn’t make them right.
I’m not comparing Christianity with any of these philosophies, I’m just pointing out what you should already know: that appeals to tradition are not valid arguments. “The founding era” is not a time to look back on as a paragon of what we should do today. The Founders didn’t WANT us to look at them that way; they believed there should be a new constitution every fifteen years. If they knew we were still using the one they signed in 1776, I honestly don’t know if they’d be proud or mortified.
But it has stood the test of time because the values are universal even if their application hasn’t always been.
Of course most people had no problem with the Bible being taught as moral instruction in schools back then. Back then, most people were Christian. There was no substantial population of people who would object. Today, we are a lot more diverse. Christanity isn’t quite as dominant as it used to be.
And that’s really what you’re complaining about: a loss of dominance. Not rights. There is absolutely no loss of rights for you in this case; you still have every right to donate to this charity. But you are angry because the government, through the public school system, is no longer acting to promote your religion.
That’s called a loss of privilege. And I understand, truly, why this discomforts you. People have always reacted with panic when they feel their social privilege slipping away. They become irrational. They make arguments that clearly make no sense, and never notice the irony. It happened with women’s suffrage. It happened with desegregation. It is still happening with gay rights.
But that privilege was always unearned and arbitrary. And yet defenders of privilege always seem to think that they have some sort of natural right to dominance over others. This makes them unable to distinguish between a loss of privilege and a violation of rights. It leads to hysterical cries of “oppression” and “totalitarianism” when others gain the same rights you do.
This is an absolute case study in such overreaction.
Dewey: “Those states that are trying to create a state religion and base laws off it can deal with their own aftermath.”
Well let’s see. We have laws against killing. That would be one of the commandments (6). Stealing (8), same thing. It’s hard to completely separate church and state when the state’s laws have been formed and shaped using these Biblical Commandments. To deny this is to deny centuries of history and foundational law in the west. It is more than a little silly to pretend the values that have shaped our laws just gradually came about, as some seem determined to do. The problem is that there is no longer any tolerance for those values unless they are made secular and whitewashed of origin. There has been a lot of push by a minority of citizens to do just this for at least fifty years. The influence they have had in our education system has put them at a greater advantage.
Those interested might enjoy a book, “Push Back” highlighted at Breitbart. It was written by Rabbi Aryeh Spero who is quoted as saying:
William Bigelow of Breitbart adds:
I have no interest in making America a theocracy based on Christianity. I am quite sure also that Christianity should be tolerated just as we tolerate other groups. I think it is healthy for children to be exposed to the values of different groups and I don’t think Christianity should be excluded.
“Tax any church that participates in Politics! No more preachers making millions teaching politics for the 1%”
All bad roads lead to the dreadsed 1%. Yes you really are deeply prejudiced.
I think just the opposite. Green nonprofits get lots of political mileage for the money they give as do unions and other groups. Some of these groups or their representatives and members propagandize in our schools, an infraction much worse than an invitation to decorate a box and fill it with toys for poor kids.
“I want to help people who have genuine need during this season, not genuine greed.”
Good for you. Can we at least agree that the choice for others is up to them!
Libby in most times I would agree with you. But this petty crap has to stop. I’m getting really tired of the nasty offense against the smallest of things because they are somehow attached to Christianity. The “values” of secularists are being propagandized in our schools with impunity. these values are as “religious” in nature as any Biblical commandment and the proponents just zealous as the most firey preacher.
We don’t have public schools of learning anymore. We have institutions of progressive propaganda. Our children are not being educated they are being shaped into good little comrades.
I will back off on little programs like this, even with all of the compromises to appease the ungodly, if they will stop telling kids how and when to procreate and what constitutes an acceptable relationship. These are not matters of education they are matters of personal creed.
Reading, writing, math, science, history, civics. There is plenty of material there without making everything about the green lobby agenda and the GLBT agenda. If public schools are going to be vanilla in terms of values then let them be vanilla across the board.
I am also tired of the false interpretation of the law that is used as a weapon to silence Christians and push them to the back of the bus!
This may satisfy the Godless but it does not reflect the intent of the founders nor the intent in practice by Americans for a couple of centuries in this country.
Princess you make good points about the values (or should I say lack of them) that people sometimes have. The charity should never have disclosed the names and address of the people making donations. On the other hand the people know better than to donate to that group again and if I were them I would make sure they knew why I was not pleased.
Sounds like a good reason for the country to ebcome more tolerant of the values we once all shared in America. the Ten Commandments cover a lot of them…so does the golden rule. We had these values whether or not we were associated with religion.
The one big change has been the rise and activism of the secular progressive (godless) movement.
Can anyone else site a better reason for the decline in America that Princess describes? the gifts were given in good faith believing that the people were needy and would feel fortunate and blessed by the gesture of kindness.
It also occurs to me that it is not much different in our welfare systems. Some are grateful and work to be free…they give back. Too many are lost to the black hole of dependency which breeds resentment and a sense of entitlement (Probably to hide the shame and feelings of being a lesser citizen)
A society that has no values cannot remain free. I hope we learn this lesson and become a little more tolerant of efforts of any kind to teach the value of giving.
Tina: “I will back off on little programs like this, even with all of the compromises to appease the ungodly, if they will stop telling kids how and when to procreate and what constitutes an acceptable relationship.”
Is this you saying that you are against abstinence-only education?
Chris: “Please show me the part of my comment where I accused the charity of being “sinister” and launching “an evil plot to manipulate children.”
The word “recruit” suggest an evil intent to me. I have never been to a gathering of any sort, especially a charitable outreach, that “recruits” people who are new to the religion. Invitation, yes.
All of the comments against this charity have a similar tone which I guess could be a reflection of the writers own disdain for Christianity. But if so, it would be projection.
“My only problem is with a government-funded school asking students to donate to a religious charity.”
I would too if it was on school time, tied to grades, and the kids didn’t have a choice in the matter. Also, I don’t think that the kids were asked to “give to religious organization”. I don’t think it happened that way at all (I’m of course surmising based on my experience of my schools and my kids and grandkids schools) Teachers are great people with kids (Most of them) They wouldn’t think that way, not even in the deeply religious South.
I think the administrators and/or teachers wanted to organize an activity, something fun, so the kids could participate in a project during the gift giving season (Formerly known as Christmas). I think they made an effort to find something that didn’t suggest a religious activity (This is the South) and this charity was suggested by someone with the caveat that the boxes be completely neutral. I imagine they discussed it and made decisions to accommodate the rules designed to keep God completely out of the classroom and thought they had done a good job with that. I doubt if they intended to offend anyone, offend the Constitution, or break any rules.
“The school can find a non-religious charity to partner with.”
Because it’s now okay to discriminate against religious organization even though the majority of these kids are religious. No religion is a religion it’s just denied.
“You are not paying attention to the actual arguments I’ve made, you are arguing with a strawman.”
Excuse me Chris but I am doing nothing of the sort. I am responding to specific things you wrote which I highlighted for convenience and clarity. We are having a conversation not a debate.
“I personally am against evangelizing”
Evangelizing is not any different than attempting to persuade another to a point of view on any other subjects. Unless coercion tactics are involved or freedom or choice is denied I don’t get what makes it different. You evangilize for the LGBT community all of the time. YOu desperately want other to think as you do and to accept your beliefs. How is it different? LGBT organizations and activists are changing what is being taught in our schools…things that were once thought to be personal private and a matter of personal and religious conviction and were off limits for teachers. What is the difference?
“You should familiarize yourself with recent Supreme Court cases before you say things like this.”
It’s possible for the courts to be wrong. Humanists, atheists and Marxists have infiltrated our schools and our legal and government systems. The will of the people has in some cases been usurped by the opinions of the courts. New polling data shows that a majority of Americans now think abortion is wrong and would favor restrictions. See also here. The courts may soon find themselves reconsidering.
“…but that’s only because you don’t know what the law says.”
That’s not true. I am very familiar with the Constitution, the supreme law of the land. I am also familiar with the many ways it has been compromised to accommodate special interest agendas.
“…through an organization that is going to add scriptures to the gifts”
Only when appropriate. I would assume that they do this for Christian children or children that have family that has expressed interest. The webpage says they seek parental or guardians consent and kids participate regardless of their religious beliefs. The deliberate attempt to paint these people as enforcers or something worse, rather than kind people doing good deeds, is unnecessary and a bit outrageous!
“Of course the school is run by the government. That’s what public schools are.”
This shows how deeply you have been propagandized. In America the government is of the people! These are not government schools they are public…of the citizens! The idea that the government, especially at the federal level should be overlords of our schools is relatively new and tainted with the totalitarianism found in Marxist countries.
“You are saying things that you know are false. That is called lying.”
I disagree. I am touching on deeper truths that Americans of your age have never experienced! I am challenging the so called wisdom of the day as a distortion of the nations laws. That is not lying that is standing up for the people of a free nation!
“That doesn’t make them right.”
And this doesn’t make the AHA right either. And by the way not every American held those views. The priority of forming the United States took precedence over lesser issues. You notice that the means to alter the Constitution was given. Had they been the evil white men that so many today portray they would not have made it so.
“Today, we are a lot more diverse. Christanity isn’t quite as dominant as it used to be.”
So Christianity as one of the new minorities should be shoved to the back of the bus and its children treated like third class citizens? I don’t think you realize the level of intolerance that exists and that has been going on in our schools. I don’t think you realize that this intolerance is getting worse and that it is militant and at times destructive and violent. If we are to uphold the equality principle then it doesn’t do to just transfer prejudices does it? One parent objected in three years and took her case to the AHA rather than tolerating the activity and letting the school know her child would not be participating and why.
“And that’s really what you’re complaining about: a loss of dominance.”
No Chris, That’s not what I’m complaining about. That is your idea of what I’m complaining about…a typical part of your PC education. I am takling about real tolerance. I am talking about all people being willing to bend a little. I’m talking about using frivolous petty lawsuits as an intimidation tactic…its a power over you gesture not a tolerant gesture. The activists intend to drive religion out of society completely and they will use any means necessary. The fact that you tolerate this petty bullying would amaze me except that I know how education works in America now and I know you are a product of the brave new world thinking.
“But you are angry because the government, through the public school system, is no longer acting to promote your religion.”
A. Angry? No. Quietly and completely committed to pushing back against the bullies that preach their brand of values in our schools with impunity while driving every vestige of religious value out. this is not education but manipulation and they get away with it because the groups they identify with aren’t religious per say. But they are intolerant and they are bigoted and their power over the majority of citizens of this school district is not about the Constitution; the Constitution is but a prop they use for their intolerant and tyrannical views.
“That’s called a loss of privilege. And I understand, truly, why this discomforts you.”
You don’t understand me at all. You talk to the image you constructed in all of those classes you took. You don’t relate to em as a person but as a thing made up of all the evils you imagine still exist when key words are spoken. I am really sick of this garbage. It assumes racism where there is none; it assumes an attitude of “power over” where there is none. I do not now nor have I ever thought of myself as more powerful than any other person, or more deserving. That caricature is used as a way to divide and separate people.
“And yet defenders of privilege always seem to think that they have some sort of natural right to dominance over others.”
You are preaching! Geez Chris, look in the mirror. Then look at the situation. The school was minding its business…doing its thing. Which party then chose to try to dominate and use power for control of the situation? the single parent and the AHA just couldn’t stand this free time activity so they sought to dominate and control the situation through the threat of a lawsuit. How very meek of them!
You are a man lost in his mind without the slightest bit of practical experience in the world.
This is the type of person now leading our country and its an absolute failure and mess. We have animosity and division and we have solutions that pick winners and losers and end up not working for anyone.
This was a petty gripe taken to extreme.
Twas the month before Christmas
When all through our land,
Not a Christian was praying
Nor taking a stand.
Why the PC Police had taken away
The reason for Christmas – no one could say.
The children were told by their schools not to sing
About Shepherds and Wise Men and Angels and things.
It might hurt people’s feelings, the teachers would say
December 25th is just a ‘ Holiday’.
Yet the shoppers were ready with cash, checks and credit
Pushing folks down to the floor just to get it!
CDs from Madonna, an X BOX, an I-Pod
Something was changing, something quite odd!
Retailers promoted Ramadan and Kwanzaa
In hopes to sell books by Franken & Fonda.
As Targets were hanging their trees upside down
At Lowe’s the word Christmas – was no where to be found.
At K-Mart and Staples and Penny’s and Sears
You won’t hear the word Christmas; it won’t touch your ears.
Inclusive, sensitive, Di-ver-si-ty
Are words that were used to intimidate me.
Now Daschle, Now Darden, Now Sharpton, Wolf Blitzen
On Boxer, on Rather, on Kerry, on Clinton!
At the top of the Senate, there arose such a clatter
To eliminate Jesus, in all public matter.
And we spoke not a word, as they took away our faith
Forbidden to speak of salvation and grace
The true Gift of Christmas was exchanged and discarded
The reason for the season, stopped before it started.
So as you celebrate ‘Winter Break’ under your ‘Dream Tree’
Sipping your Starbucks, listen to me.
Choose your words carefully, choose what you say
Shout MERRY CHRISTMAS,
not Happy Holiday!
Please, all Christians join together and
wish everyone you meet
MERRY CHRISTMAS
Christ is The Reason’ for the Christ-mas Season!
Retail uses the word Holiday because the goal is to sell not to worry about what religion one practices. retail is not a church. retail is to serve all customers not one set.
Freedom is to practice the religion of your choice as most came here as immigrants from different countries with different Religions. Remember when Kennedy being an Irish catholic was a big deal to some?
Corruption response:
Corruption needs no link it was already posted. The letter says it all and I support the letter.
The children are being used and manipulated.
“The evangelical booklet delivered with the toys includes a conversion pledge for the child
to sign. As its founder has admitted, Operation Christmas Child “is about introducing children
and their families to God’s greatest gift-His Son, Jesus Christ” and that “evangelism is the focus”
of the program. He has boasted that the program has
converted “tens of thousands of children and their families,” citing an example where “one shoebox prepared the way for nearly two dozen people to come to faith in Jesus Christ.” The shoebox gifts are used to “support pastors and churches overseas who are committed to sharing the Gospel with children in their communities.”
The sole purpose of the program is to convert people to evangelical religion not help people. having pledges to a particular religion in the boxes? That is a Parents decision for the child to participate and not the schools.
A person is free to practice that religion but they are not free to involve my Child in it or force it into public schools.
I find that particular religion twisting the Bible quite often. As well as that church getting involved in politics, wanting to hurt the poor and protecting corporate welfare ect. Trying to divert all tax dollars to for profit business to where a poor person will not have something as simple as police and fire protection cause they can not pay for it. But they will still have to pay taxes.
Post crash 40% of Americans make $15 – $20,000 a year that is poverty and all The TP wants is more corporate welfare and take away all safety nets the people like and want their taxes to go to. That is directly against the gospel.
A direct conflict to what the United States of America is.
Did I not say I will fight for all to have the freedom to choose their religion? Yes !!!!
But Religion needs to stay out of our Politics.
How would you feel if everybody had to convert to Mormon and that was what was taught in all schools. Jesus came to Missouri and the children required to wear magic underwear?
Just because it is obvious Killing, Stealing and other things are morally wrong and we have laws against it does not mean it is all because of religion. We are all born with morals unless mentally disabled.
Come to think of it it is legal to kill in many states as long as no one is a witness you just use the stand your ground law as Z-man did.
Separation of Church and State is easy!
Morals are easy!
Jesus said to help the poor!
It is corrupt to use public schools and the kids of many faiths to gather the shoe-boxes and not tell them the purpose is to convert to 1 religion. It is corrupt to not let the parents choose. It could have been done after school in a private church.
I know Catholics would take issue with that. A parent can send their child to a religious school.
The whole point of getting rid of public schools is
1) to divert tax dollars to ca company to profit off of not educate.
2) Teach creationism a single religion which all science defies. That is not freedom of religion.
A person is free to practice it not bring it into our schools.
have ya seen the Louisiana voucher textbooks?
Sorry you can send a kid to private school for that stuff. The bible does not trump science they go hand and hand. The people on earth at that time spoke with the knowledge they had. We live in the 21st century and the bible still works but ya know what science is not bad it all goes hand in hand.
Winter Solstice is OK
Christmas is OK
Everybody is free to celebrate it their way in harmony!
All you have to do is listen to the Bachman’s Akin’s paul’s ect to hear the Evangelica religion being forced on the public. A Catholic can send their kid to catholic school ect. Public schools are not there to teach a religion. As far as this anti green agenda? God did not create the earth for a couple of Billionaires to destroy for a non created entity money. Man created that.
respect the earth, God created it.
“The “values” of secularists are being propagandized in our schools with impunity.”
Name one.
When I was in school the school nurse couldn’t administer even an aspirin if I had a headache. In some schools across our land today girls can be taken without their parents permission for an abortion. Schools also hand out condoms with the nice little excuse, “Well their going to do it anyway,” and a nice little talk that goes in one ear and out the other. These conditions spring from secular values. I believe they are called “anything goes and leave the parents out!”
Name a school in the USA that takes a girl to get an abortion without her legal guardians permission. The whole point is it is the Parents or guardians decision for a minor child so where is the story I will fight against that as well!
That is a heavy accusation with no source that this is policy, an isolated incident? or a school policy? That is against the law.
Exactly which schools have that policy?
And ya know what Kids get condoms allot of places. I rather my kid have a condom than not. This is not the dark ages and condoms are not evil.
The whole point of this story is a parent did not want a school to have his child manipulated to do work for that religion.
Regardless of the subject matter it is the parents decision.
Churches need to do those things on their own property.
Freedom of religion does not mean every citizen has to be subjected to the evangelical church.
Dewey the projects were done at home. children could choose not to participate. The single parent(s) that objected had to know this. I made that clear in the post and in comments that followede.
There was no indoctrination involved at the school!!!!!
According to the organizations webpage only Christian children or children whose parents gave permission had Christian materials included in the gift they received but all children regardless of personal beliefs would get a gift.
This is a heck of a lot more fair and accomodating than many of the things leftists are doing in our schools. (See the latest post)
Progressives bullies (here jack booted thugs in suits with law degrees and Soros money) are very successful ruling through intimidation as this lawsuit exemplifies. Funny how the volunteer creeps who haunt Post Scripts jump on board the moment they smell blood.
The American Humanist Association (AHA) is a professional bullying organization that advances a progressive philosophy of life and seeks to excrete into the mouths of everyone and anyone who opposes their beliefs. (See Martin Bashir.)
Up yours.
No gifts for kids now no food for the homeless. Geez, Mother Teresa would have been jailed if she lived in America today.
Christian Ministry Threatened With Jail Time for Serving Local Homeless and Elderly:
“Serving the homeless and elderly is a central tenet of the Christian faith,” says Jeremy Dys, Liberty Institute attorney. “Those who exercise their faith by caring for the poor on the streets of Harrisburg ought to be applauded for their kindness, not threatened with jail time.”
Randall Wenger, counsel for the Independence Law Center, says, “All too often, our leaders lose sight of our core liberties. We need more freedom to fix the problems around us, not more government control that simply gets in the way.”
Every week for more than five years, staff and volunteers associated with Isaiah 61 Ministries have provided meals, toiletries, clothing and other forms of assistance to the homeless men and women of Harrisburg, as well as to the poor and elderly. Because of the recent threats made by the Dauphin County commission, Isaiah 61 Ministries and several other ministries engaged in similar religious exercises throughout the rest of the week have been unable to serve those most in need of help at this time of year.
http://www.charismanews.com/us/41820-christian-ministry-threatened-with-jail-time-for-serving-local-homeless-and-elderly
Tina: “In some schools across our land today girls can be taken without their parents permission for an abortion.”
That’s not true, but I’m sure you felt very righteous saying it.
Peggy, I personally think the ministry should be allowed to continue feeding the homeless on that property. However, the article you cited totally left out the city’s side of the story. The city says they want the ministry to move due to concerns about public urination and harassment by the homeless. Jack and Tina have written numerous articles here about the homeless problem in Chico where their message seems to be that feeding and otherwise accommodating the homeless only worsens the problem, and the city should do more to get them out, so I think it is kind of ironic that you are complaining about this but never complained about Jack and Tina’s posts that called for actions just like this one.
What is so hard about Separation of Church and State?
A Parent wrote a letter in another state and all this hoopla, by the way did I miss the source for the abortion school?
Chris: “That’s not true, but I’m sure you felt very righteous saying it.”
Thanks Chris, I’m pretty sure you felt smug saying that! However…
Hot Air reporting in 2010 on a story out of Seattle, WA via local TV station KOMO:
Chris neither Jack nor I are against people in need receiving the basic requirements for life and when appropriate a helping hand to get back on their feet. Local communities usually have facilities for such people. What we are against is people who come to our city for the generous handouts but refuse to seek help, and who panhandle and behave badly or use the streets and sidewalks for their personal bathroom. Cities need a balance between helping those truly in need and discouraging shiftless lifestyles…aggressive panhandlers and con artists…people who live without regard to the rights and property of others and who refuse to take responsibility for themselves in even the most basic ways. These should be discouraged in civil society, but be very clear, that does not describe every person who finds himself in need of temporary or even permanent help. There is a difference.