by Jack Lee
There are days when I think our nation has lost it’s moral compass, and then there are other days when I’m sure of it. Not so long ago we overwhelmingly embraced capitalism as the best system for personal wealth building and security. That’s been called into question with the rise of socialism, class warfare and all the wealth shifting tactics of the democrat party. I grew up as a baby boomer, right after WWII, our moral mentors were good guys from Roy Rogers to Davy Crocket and every kid new the story of the Alamo. They were simpler times with straight forward right and wrong. Today, our values and convictions are being replaced by something else. One of many unwise and reckless groups who want to revise our history, destroy our heroes and fundamentally change America is MEChA, an Hispanic separatist organization that encourages anti-American activities and civil disobedience.
The radical members of MEChA who refer to themselves as “Mechistas.” They romanticize Mexican claims to the “lost Territories” of the Southwestern United States and a Chicano country called Aztlan. Crocket was no hero of theirs! MEChA, La Raza and other hate groups have a strong influence on many college campuses, especially in the Southwest. MEChA and other groups would like an open border.
In another area of the new America, being rich is far less noble than being poor. The noble poor are the new underdogs, fighting the good fight against the evil rich. In particular this battle is focused on the one percent of top earners. They are seen by too many as the worst of the worst for their success, because it’s assumed they must have garnered their great wealth on the exploitation of the poor. This is the big lie. But, tell it often enough and a wrong will sound right.
The age of accountability has been replaced with the age of plausible deniability… a poor substitute ethical conduct.
The former bright line between right and wrong is increasingly blurred with situational ethics and so it goes. The result is right has become wrong and wrong has become right, the nation is upside down.
- When a nation recognizes pornography as being protected by free speech, right has become wrong.
- When ghetto thugs doing rap can earn ten times more than a scientist…we’re upside down.
- When these same thugs are seen as role models and our police officers are seen as the enemy, we’re upside down.
- When the killing of the unborn can be justified by sex selection or inconvenience… we’re upside down.
- When the American flag is lowered and the Mexican Flag is raised over our schools in SoCal and the students cheer, we’re upside down
- When people no longer vote for what is good for the country, but what is good for them… we’re upside down.
- When a nation recognizes pornography as being protected by free speech,we’re upside down.
In the Old Testament Isaiah prophesied of a time when standards and behavioral attitudes would be reversed, and Jesus said in the end-times many people would be deceived: The Bible sends us a clear warning in Isaiah 5:20 “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.”
Woe indeed, our nation is awash in woe and it’s only getting worse. Too many of us have been deceived and we’re no longer able to seeing the
great opportunities and the grand vision handed down to us by our founders.
The founders declared we have certain unbounded rights, [inalienable] rights, granted to us by God and not man. And those rights were underscored with carefully crafted Constitutional Amendments. However, there exist many confused and deceived Americans who would now like to vote out one of our most valuable amendments. The Second Amendment is under attack like never before, yet this amendment gives us the strength to protect our [inalienable] rights and even to restore our democracy through force, if necessary.
The scandals in Washington, the looting of our nations treasuries, the growth of the big Nanny State, the amazing plethora of lies told by stealthy politicians seeking personal advantage, the disrespect shown to our flag and the vilifying of our founders, these are all symptoms of a nation in decline.
John Adams in a speech to the military in 1798 warned his fellow countrymen stating, “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
When in doubt, check the messenger.
Seems more likely that those with an agenda are the quickest to point fingers and accuse others of wrongdoing.
Wealth shifting?
Ya mean like the few Billionaires who want slave labor here like china?
Cut it out Americans like me are not wealth shifting we are against the wealth shifting to the Oligarchy
A CEO makes 10 mil a year and they want people to work for $3hr as said BY Eric Cantor
Destruction of the middle class has no Party
The Banks got bailed out and stuck it to consumers..
Dewey you could not be more wrong…again. Show me a case where the CEO in America is making 10M a year and his employees are making $3! What a naïve thing to say. As for the those so-called slaves, they are working their way out of poverty and into the middle class because of capitalism. The more they earn the more they buy and the more taxes they pay. And they only started out at the bottom a few years back…and now look at the prosperity they have! This has been great for China – bad for us. But, remember this one thing Dewey, if you can’t remember anything else. An employee has a finite value and an employer can only afford to pay what they are worth. If government mandates they be paid more than they are worth, the business is doomed to fail. They can’t violate the basic law of economics…the bottom line.
Jack your words ring true and the confusion you speak to is reflected in some of the comments.
How is it possible that a citizen of the United States would not know the difference between earning ones money and taking or stealing money? Between preparing for a good career and goofing off? Or, exploiting the hard working citizens for money to redistribute to non-producing others for their loyalty and votes?
Americans used to proudly and independently care for themselves and each other through family and charity. We admired citizens who had the grit and the cleverness to make a lot of money. We took pride in the fact that they were Americans, making American products and providing Americans with valuable services.
Earning through work is honorable no matter how much or how little we make.
Earning through savings and investment and providing the means that others may find work is also honorable…and should not be blunted or punished through excessive taxation. This money is the seed that brings the jobs crop.
It is not honorable to redistribute from those who work to those who will not work.
There is no correlation or link between a CEO that makes $10 million a year and a job worth only $3.00 an hour.
Jobs have value. If we want to make more money we had better prepare ourselves for a job that pays.
This victim mentality sickness has made our nation very ill. We are near death due to the inability of our citizens to realize their own value and worth. People don’t have any idea that their lives, the quality of their lives, and the amount of money they make depends entirely on their own choices and efforts and not a single bit on what some CEO of a company makes.
The economy is not a zero sum game where the CEO’s are hogging all the available money. In fact we need to set their wealth free in the market so that good jobs can be produced.
Right now most avenues for creating wealth (and JOBS) have been stifled or cut off. Low interest rates and high tax rates make investing in the future pretty worthless and saving money is a bust. The middle class took a huge hit in the crash but the governments policies have blunted our recovery opportunities! The stock market has made gains but with very low levels of trading by the big investors and on the backs of a few big tech companies. Confidence in the market is based on artificial injections of cash rather than solid growth.
We’re sitting in the sludge produced by bad policy; the middle class has no way to climb out. This is unforgivable…every other recession was followed by a big surge in economic activity and job creation…not this one. Pathetic!
Those who believe socialism is the answer to these conditions should be be able to see by now that it does not work. Is morality, or lack thereof, involved in this blind loyalty to big government power? I don’t know. I think there are amoral people involved at high levels of government. There are certainly a lot of people that have forgotten the grounding that established our republic.
Post reread what I said… I said Eric cantor said they wish to pay $3hr
He said it on public radio That is their wish
You can live in a world where there is no wage gap growing but the history will show it true
Oh wait unfortunately I can skycaps were and also in some states restaurant servers were
Sky cap Some of the hard-working porters, Harrison included, were paid as little as $3.90 per hour during this period.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/40-jfk-airport-skycaps-big-pay-raises-ag-settlement-article-1.1950420
Cracker barrel is an example of the wages They hire many at $2.13 – $3. an hour
forgot about that
But still that is not what I said. Come on Jack Chico and california is way different than the south I believe the skycaps sued for higher wages. That is about the time cantor said it. I do not lie.
Out of touch is the best I can use to politely respond to your response. I am American and I will not pretend there is nothing wrong.
The facts are known look at the data…Numbers do not lie Reaganomics and the conservative policies started the gap
http://article.wn.com/view/2013/05/01/Average_CEO_versus_worker_pay_2401_Video/
Living in a bubble does not make the Greed go away
If wages grew with profits min wage would be about 22 an hr and it would not be a big deal.
The difference is privatizing so by law shareholders are more important than employees. Shareholders are not All Americans
Capitalism without socialism becomes an Oligarch. The 2 balance each other.
Humans are real money is not.
I do not believe a company should not pay workers a fair wage so foreign investors profit.
I also have no problem with a CEO making big bucks if the employees are not living in poverty.
I do not like providing food stamps for workers of places like walmart where the Kids who inherited their wealth hold as much wealth as somewhere between 30 -40% of regular Americans. Pay your workers and stop making taxpayers feed them.
GREED
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-30/ceo-pay-1-795-to-1-multiple-of-workers-skirts-law-as-sec-delays.html
http://money.cnn.com/2013/04/15/news/economy/ceo-pay-worker/index.html
http://www.anamericanstudies.com/2008/06/ceo-vs-worker-pay.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-12/mcdonald-s-8-25-man-and-8-75-million-ceo-shows-pay-gap.html
lazy are the seniors trying to equate today’s world to their working days.
Jack It use to be my job to figure out how to screw employes for a large corporation. I quit on ethics.
I think if a 15 year old kid wants to work at a local downtown store for an hour or two after school breaking down boxes or sweeping up the store room or sticking the price tag on cans or boxes and is willing to do it for $3.00 an hour he should be able to take that work Those kinds of jobs are a good way for kids to learn some responsibility and earn a couple of bucks they wouldn’t have otherwise. The job wouldn’t even exist if the store had to pay him ten bucks an hour…it’s busy work the owner creates to give a kid a shot but he’d never pay ten bucks and all of the extra taxes for that work; he’d do it himself!
The problem with government deciding what a job is worth, and having their noses in everything is that it destroys creative opportunities that individuals can work out together.
Have people forgotten they live in a free country? Do Americans even know how to tie their own shoes anymore? Don’t they know if they don’t like what they are being paid they can do something about it themselves?
Man this is frustrating.
Please save us from the saviors who convince people they are victims and condemn them to a life without personal power and dependency on others!
Lets talk about screwing the workers.
Your experience, Dewey, is not ALL experience.
You apparently never worked at a place where the employees screw the employer every day. GM union workers…that’s the business (UNION) that the American taxpayer bailed out! They sure appreciate it, huh? They sure look like a bunch that works hard and deserves their high pay and benefits, right?
How many GM cars were recalled so far in 2014?
People are people. Greed and poor attitudes are not exclusive to one class of people or another.
There are certain policies that encourage behaviors and attitudes, however, which is why I favor individual freedom and the rule of law over unions, socialism, and government intrusion. As an individual I have a choice about where I work and what I’m willing to take in compensation and I should to be free to make that decision with the person who will be signing my check not by permission of some socialist politician in DC.
Most people who work at Wall Mart start at minimum wage but do not stay at that wage forever unless it is by choice. The war on WalMart is political, union driven, and filled with lies and misrepresentations of fact.
OUR NATION IS UPSIDE DOWN!
This 2012 article paints a very bleak picture about Aerican attitudes, jobs, and the wonder of too much welfare, unemployment extensions, and other benefits:
Progressive ideas stink…they kill opportunity, desire, creativity, grit, determination, and choice!
Oooooh, spooky. Jack … do you really think that the Supreme Being is concerned with your ability to possess any and all firearms that take your heart’s desire?
Well … I don’t.
And there it is.
Nah Libs, I really don’t think God cares, but I know our founders did and that’s close enough. The point was, that if rights were bestowed on us by politicians then those rights could be taken away. On the other hand, inalienable rights bestowed on us by a higher power (God or Her Highness) can’t be legally revoked by mere politicians.
Jack: “The point was, that if rights were bestowed on us by politicians then those rights could be taken away.
The point deserves repeating! Why do our friends on the left so often miss the point? It isn’t, as they say, rocket science!
Tina, it is frustrating isn’t it? Our founders flat out told everyone exactly why we have inalienable rights as people, yet so many on the wacky left still don’t get it. No power on earth can revoke what the Creator has bestowed…period, end of story. This is black and white as it gets.
This is why I really like Ted Cruz. Note he uses no notes or teleprompters.
Ted Cruz at the 2014 Value Voters Summit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgMVlznqBJw
” A liberal paradise would be a place where everybody has guaranteed employment, free comprehensive healthcare, free education, free food, free housing ,free clothing, free utilities, and only law enforcement has guns. And believe it or not, such a place does, indeed, exist: Its called prison.”
Sheriff Joe Arpaio, Maricopa County
I wonder ,if we were instructed to march alongside one another and walk across Syria in opposite directions , and given a choice of which line to join,
One line with weapons in hand in defense of freedom and rights,
the other line just joining hands and signing kum ba ya lyrics praising the merits of same, which do you believe Lib’s and her pals might consider then?
Good chance they’d go for the guns. Some would end up slaughtered and face down in a ditch…some used in unspeakable ways.
Remember the LA riots when some of Charlton Heston’s liberal anti-gun buddies called him to see if he could spare a few weapons?
Hypocrisy and liberals are like bread and butter. It’s not that they are more hypocritical than any other human being; it’s that they have no grounding. The end justifies the means. There is always a handy justification. It “depends on what the definition of “is” is. It depends on whether the guy has a “D” or an “R” following his name. It matters, or doesn’t matter, because you have “star” quality.
Thus the Leonardo DiCaprio’s of the left can fly all over the world in private jets that burn massive amounts of fuel and still lecture others about their excessive oil consumption while accepting awards for his “contribution” to the global warming cause.
Americans are going to have to develop a better survival sense if we are ever going to get back to making smart decisions.
“The point was, that if rights were bestowed on us by politicians then those rights could be taken away.”
And I repeat, do you REALLY think that the Supreme Being authored the Second Amendment? That would make the S.B. a creation in YOUR image, rather than the other way round.
But that is what you think, isn’t it?
And that’s why we keep religion out of politics … to keep little tin gods in check. If our tighty righties abuse their second amendment privileges, then those privileges will be taken away.
And talk about “original intent” … the thing does not even say what you INSIST that it means.
Can you back up your claim that MeCha is a “hate group?”
Jack: “They are seen by too many as the worst of the worst for their success, because it’s assumed they must have garnered their great wealth on the exploitation of the poor. This is the big lie.”
No one is saying that all rich people are “the worst of the worst.” But it is a fact that our current economy is designed in a way to make the rich richer without truly uplifting the poor. That is not the fault of the rich, but they do benefit from a classist system. The favoring of capital gains over earned income is only one of the many ways that the rich have an additional advantage over the working class. The hundreds of tax loopholes are another. Reagan understood this, which is why he taxed capital gains at the same rate as earned income, and actually made an honest attempt to close specific loopholes.
Reagan also understood that reasonable gun safety laws were needed, which is why he supported the Brady Bill–a law that is now portrayed by the right-wing as exclusively the work of the gun-grabbing evil liberals. Attempts to repeat the common sense regulations of the Brady Bill have been denounced as left-wing socialism despite Reagan’s clearly articulated support. One of the worst right-wing lies I’ve seen was that “Reagan never supported gun control even after he got shot!” which is just blatantly false; Reagan explicitly invoked the assassination attempt as a reason he supported the Brady Bill in this New York Times op-ed:
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/29/opinion/why-i-m-for-the-brady-bill.html
“When a nation recognizes pornography as being protected by free speech, right has become wrong.”
Why? Because you find it disgusting, immoral, and harmful to society? I find Rush Limbaugh’s utterances, most recently his suggestion that we should teach boys that no doesn’t always mean no, disgusting, immoral, and harmful to society. But I’d never argue that they shouldn’t be protected by free speech. (Joining a boycott or pressuring advertisers to drop him is another story, and is simply fighting speech with more speech.) Are you honestly suggesting that a society that values free speech can outlaw pornography without any contradiction? By what justification?
“When ghetto thugs doing rap can earn ten times more than a scientist…we’re upside down.”
Nice dogwhistle, Jack–just say “black,” we all know what you mean. Why not bring up Ted Nugent while you’re at it?
Anyway, I find it ironic that you complain about this only a few paragraphs after extolling the virtues of capitalism. Rappers (and entertainers of every kind–no need to single out one genre) make more money than scientists because there is more demand for their product.
“When the killing of the unborn can be justified by sex selection or inconvenience… we’re upside down.”
Are there any actual examples of abortion being justified by “sex selection” in America? All reports I’ve seen show that this reason is virtually non-existent. Also, I’d say having a child when you’re not ready counts as quite a bit more than an “inconvenience”–it’s a major life-altering event, and it is incredibly costly. The life and rights of even the youngest human fetus are not without value, but the life and rights of a born person with hopes, dreams, and oh, neural activity will always be more valuable to me in the long run. (Most abortions occur before the fetus has a functioning neural cortex–meaning that the fetus has no ability to think or feel.)
“When the American flag is lowered and the Mexican Flag is raised over our schools in SoCal and the students cheer,”
When did this happen? I agree this is wrong.
“When a nation recognizes pornography as being protected by free speech,we’re upside down.”
You apparently felt so confident in this one you needed to state it twice, despite the fact that it’s the least coherent point on here. Again, why should it not be protected by free speech? The fact that it offends you is obviously not enough, if you even want to pretend to care about freedom of speech.
Jack: “An employee has a finite value and an employer can only afford to pay what they are worth. If government mandates they be paid more than they are worth, the business is doomed to fail. They can’t violate the basic law of economics…the bottom line.”
Yes, and if you believe that the work your cashiers, waitresses and other service people do is worth less than $8 an hour, that makes perfect sense. The problem is that that belief is wrong; minimum wage workers are not being paid their true worth, but actually much less.
Why do conservatives acknowledge that it’s possible to overvalue an employee’s worth, but never acknowledge that it’s also possible to undervalue it?
If you want to talk about the Founders’ intent re: gun control, then get informed. The Founders required all guns to be registered with the government, and required routine inspections. Not even the most rabid liberals support the latter today.
Tina: “I think if a 15 year old kid wants to work at a local downtown store for an hour or two after school breaking down boxes or sweeping up the store room or sticking the price tag on cans or boxes and is willing to do it for $3.00 an hour he should be able to take that work”
And I think that’s rational. A lot of countries with higher min. wages than the U.S. have exemptions for kids. I would have no problem with that kind of compromise. But what the current GOP is asking for is the complete elimination of the minimum wage for everyone. That is not rational. Children do not typically have the same financial needs as adults. The GOP’s anti-min. wage policy amounts to taking our country backwards.
“The job wouldn’t even exist if the store had to pay him ten bucks an hour…”
You understand that we’ve had a better functioning economy at a time when employers DID have to pay the equivalent of $10 an hour?
“Don’t they know if they don’t like what they are being paid they can do something about it themselves?”
Oh, yeah, they can just get another job! Because there are so many of those lying around.
Chris: “The problem is that that belief is wrong; minimum wage workers are not being paid their true worth, but actually much less.”
It would be interesting to know how you arrived at this wisdom.
I suspect the condition of our overall economy is the reason college graduates and fired IT workers are now forced to take minimum wage jobs so they’re “not being paid what they’re worth”.
The solution to this problem is a vibrant economy and better jobs for the well educated and well trained.
Raising the minimum wage will not improve our economy since only 1.1% of workers make minimum wage:
Some of the people making minimum wage also earn tips so the amount of money they actually earn per week is greater than their wage reflects.
People have a value only after they gain knowledge, training or work experience. Minimum wage work is entry level work and most people move into a higher wage situation within a few months after starting.
There would be MORE ENTRY LEVEL work, and therefore more opportunity for the untrained and poorly educated if we eliminated the minimum wage.
Chris you act like people have no ability to move up in the world. I imagine that has more to do with attitude than opportunity for those who get stuck and stay stuck.
The work is what determines entry level wages and the work performed at minimum wage is just not worth a higher wage for many individual businesses that would be forced to pay a higher min wage. Particularly NOW when the economy has sucked for so long!!!!!
The consumer would benefit if the minimum wage were eliminated too. We would all find out what an entry level job is actually worth. When a business MUST pay more than it can afford to pay in wages it has to find ways to balance its budget. It hires fewer people or offers fewer hours, it downsizes portions, it comes up with a dollar menu, it finds a cheaper source for utensils and wraps (or meat…yikes!), it stays open fewer hours, it raises prices, or it automates to eliminate job expense.
These are practical, common sense, REALITIES that our lefty friends just will not get…or refuse to get.
Chris the solutions for an abundance of jobs is well known and have been implemented by presidents of both parties. The current president and his blocker in the Senate refuse to do anything that would inspire job growth because to do so would mean letting go of theirn redistribution and one party rule agenda.
When you are ready to think about what it takes to create a vibrant economy and a lot of good paying jobs we can talk. Otherwise this has become a repetitive game that’s really just a waste of time fro both of us.
Tina: “It would be interesting to know how you arrived at this wisdom.”
I’ve explained it to you many times before. Worker productivity is much higher today than it was in 1968, when the min. wage was at its highest. Inflation has also grown much faster than the min. wage.
Unless you believe that min. wage workers were grossly overpaid in 1968, it makes no sense to say that min. wage workers today are paid enough.
Do you believe min. wage workers were grossly overpaid in 1968?
“I suspect the condition of our overall economy is the reason college graduates and fired IT workers are now forced to take minimum wage jobs so they’re “not being paid what they’re worth”.”
Yes, of course it is. Because of the low demand for products in our economy, there is low demand for jobs. Low demand for jobs means workers have to take whatever they can get, and they have much less bargaining power with bosses because employers have no incentive to pay someone more when they can just replace them.
The only solution to this problem is to directly increase demand for products. Cutting taxes and regulations doesn’t do that. Direct intervention on behalf of workers, in the form of higher wages and stimulus programs, do.
“The solution to this problem is a vibrant economy and better jobs for the well educated and well trained.”
Which, again, requires demand.
“Raising the minimum wage will not improve our economy since only 1.1% of workers make minimum wage”
If it’s such a miniscule number, then you must also believe it can’t hurt our economy that much, right?
You’re contradicting yourself. Previously you have said the raising the minimum wage would cause wages to go up across the board, because more experienced workers would demand raises. (You framed this as a bad thing, but it’s not–it would increase demand across the board.) So which of these arguments do you actually believe? Is it that the amount of min. wage workers is too small to make a difference, or is it that raising their wages would cause everyone’s to go up? You can’t believe both.
A little consistency would be nice.
“People have a value only after they gain knowledge, training or work experience.”
Why do you keep saying things you know are not true? Why do you insist on making bad arguments? It’s like an addiction for you. You KNOW that min. wage workers today are already more knowledgable, more educated, and and more experienced than your generation. And they’re getting paid less. So why do you keep insisting that getting more educated and more well trained is the key to getting paid more, in direct defiance of objective reality?
“There would be MORE ENTRY LEVEL work, and therefore more opportunity for the untrained and poorly educated if we eliminated the minimum wage.”
How?
How would eliminating the minimum wage–which would obviously cause many employers to pay their employees much less than they do now–create demand for jobs? The employers would have more money, but they would have no incentive to use that money to create jobs with that money because they wouldn’t have enough demand for their product!
This is, by the way, exactly what it happening now: corporations have more money than ever, their taxes are lower than ever, but they have no reason to use that money to create jobs, because demand is low.
This reflects the simple truth that corporations do not create demand. Workers do.
“Chris you act like people have no ability to move up in the world.”
Strawman argument. Next.
“Chris the solutions for an abundance of jobs is well known and have been implemented by presidents of both parties.”
Indeed. Truman doubled the min. wage, and we saw the greatest boost in the middle class ever following that.
“When you are ready to think about what it takes to create a vibrant economy and a lot of good paying jobs we can talk. Otherwise this has become a repetitive game that’s really just a waste of time fro both of us.”
It’s only repetitive because you blatantly ignore all evidence that doesn’t conform to your narrative. I’ve lost count of how many times you’ve asked me to explain the basics of middle-out economics; you seem to forget every single time that we’ve had this discussion before, perhaps because you repress the memory.
Libby: ” that’s why we keep religion out of politics … to keep little tin gods in check.”
Hmmm…How does she justify the last six years that began with the sainted BHO:
And what about his congregational following.
Jamie Fox called Obama our Lord and Savior, according to Huffington Post.
A Newsweek Editor said of Obama, Obama is ‘we are above that now.’ We’re not just parochial, we’re not just chauvinistic, we’re not just provincial. We stand for something – I mean, in a way Obama’s standing above the country, above above the world, he’s sort of God,” on Chris Mathews show.
I mean really!
Look in the mirror, you little control freak!
Chris: “I’ve explained it to you many times before. Worker productivity is much higher today than it was in 1968…”
And I’ve explained to you that that increased productivity is due mostly to technological advances. We do with computers many things that had to be done with pencil and paper or wrench.some of those jobs require more skills it’s true. Those are not minimum wage jobs. Taking an order at a food counter requires less skill than it once did since the computer tells the operator how much change to give. Don’t much appreciate the teacher tone, either.
You base your ideas on what you believe a person should be granted rather than on what a business can offer showing you think in terms of entitlement. You have never run a business but I would think you would at least be able to grasp the simple concept of a budget.
“Because of the low demand for products in our economy, there is low demand for jobs.”
Are you kidding. The real unemployment in this country places nearly a third of working aged Americans out of the work force. The demand for jobs has not been this high for this long in decades!
The low demand for products is a direct result of the lousy economy and high unemployment! People don’t spend what they don’t have or what they think they must squirrel away for protection or in case of another crash/recession.
“If it’s such a miniscule number, then you must also believe it can’t hurt our economy that much, right?”
I never suggested it would hurt the economy. I have suggested it would hurt small business and more importantly poor entry level workers, especially black workers by eliminating jobs and hours. And no, I am not contradicting myself.
“Previously you have said the raising the minimum wage would cause wages to go up across the board, because more experienced workers would demand raises.”
It makes perfect sense to me that in a small business if my newly promoted assistant shift manager is currently making $10.00 an hour and the min wage is pushed up to that wage he will expect to make more than the newbie standing around with his hands in his pockets while the customers file out the door at lunchtime…yes? So his wage will also have to be raised. Small businesses operate on tight budgets.
Over time forced minimum wage, and union demanded higher wages, have created artificial values for THE WORK. Union workers all get the same compensation whether they do a good job OR NOT! We have no idea what the real value of work is in our nation. People should be paid based on skills but also on performance, don’t you agree? That’s difficult to do when government dictates wages.
“A little consistency would be nice.”
A little less smart a$$ would be nice too but I won’t count on it.
Why do you keep saying things you know are not true? Why do you insist on making bad arguments? It’s like an addiction for you. KNOW that min. wage workers …blah blah blah”
Why do you present yourself as an expert regarding things for which you are obviously quite ignorant? Why do you insist on that arrogant teacher tone treating me like your idiot student? What you don’t know about the economy, business, and wages would fill a library. Back the hell off!
“How would eliminating the minimum wage–which would obviously cause many employers to pay their employees much less than they do now–create demand for jobs?
It wouldn’t create more demand for jobs (entitlement thinking poisons the mind!!!)
It would open up more opportunities for the ENTRY LEVEL WORKER (no skills, no HS diploma, no work experience). A business person that has the flexibility can better control costs. Not all businesses are the same. The economy also does not stay the same. Not all neighborhoods are the same. Being able to control costs would make a big difference in poor neighborhoods allowing entrepreneurs to boot strap themselves to higher income and wealth and in time help to boost the economy of the area. (This is what should have happened, and would have happened, had government not decided to “help” in the sixties)
“The employers would have more money, but they would have no incentive to use that money to create jobs with that money because they wouldn’t have enough demand for their product!”
Right now there is little incentive to do anything but try to survive. Since we are all in survival mode what benefit is there to these small businesses, or to the people they currently employ whose jobs or hours might be cut by raising wages now? What benefit to consumers whose budgets are already tight if prices go up to pay the extra wages? You have the cart before the horse.
Who always has money? The rich have money. The investor has money. You won’t inspire them to risk that money by taxing and regulating and threatening higher energy and insurance prices.
Who benefits by suggesting a raise in the minimum wage? Unions…and in these jobs all wages would be pushed higher…they get negotiated! Also, the Democrat Party who suggests it to win votes.
There will not be higher demand for products until our economy shows significant improvement, businesses are thriving, people can once again find work, and everyone has extra money to spend. That won;t happen until you set the investors free.
“corporations have more money than ever, their taxes are lower than ever, but they have no reason to use that money to create jobs, because demand is low.”
Actually because they see no benefit. Why risk your nut when the government will take it or stifle your operation? Not all corporations have more money now. Most that do are making money despite poor conditions in America. Some have been making money in emerging markets but many of them are slowing down now. Others have made piles of money on technological advances…the 3D printer…Facebook going public…but these don;t represent the average. China is slowing down and the EU is in trouble again.
The world really depends on a strong America and America has bumped along at extremely slow growth since the end of the recession. The stock market is at record highs but that doesn’t mean a good economy; that just means there are people that know how to make money in any market. Companies are sitting on cash waiting for more favorable conditions…TO RISK…tick tock, tick tock.
“This reflects the simple truth that corporations do not create demand. Workers do.”
God save us from the entitled! “Demand” has to do with consumers…demanding products…eager to spend because they have extra money after the necessities are paid! Demand is a signal that the time to risk is opening up.
Jobs are something we “seek” whenever we are not working. Out of work employees can “demand work” all day long but it won’t do any good if there is no work to perform…no job to offer…no orders coming in.
“Strawman argument. Next. ”
Bologna! You just don’t want to say that the best way for anyone to make better pay and more money is to get better training, education, or experience! You want to piddle around offering hope through government control! How little you think of your fellow man and how small is your creative thinking!
Truman doubled the min. wage, and we saw the greatest boost in the middle class ever following that.
As you know I was referring to JFK, Reagan, Clinton and Bush! But lets look at Truman shall we? NY Daily News headline 1946:
All was not peachy in this period following the war and depression. In fact it isn’t really possible to compare our time to that period when people were lucky to have coffee or sugar in their homes, fat people were a rarely seen, and when the entire nation had been at war and suddenly had nothing to do. We live in the lap of luxury by comparison!
Conditions that led to growth and opportunity in that period cannot be reduced to a raising of the minimum wage. Because of the vast numbers of people transitioning raising the minimum wage from $.40 to $.75 affected much more than 1% of workers. But the eagerness in the people to work and build and to have things again created incredible exuberance and what Reagan called the entrepreneurial spirit. There is no way to prove it, but wages and job opportunities were bound to increase in those circumstances.
The idea that minimum wage today is grossly low compared to Truman’s time when adjusted for inflation is grossly overstated according to Politifact (see chart):
You might want to look at what causes inflation. That appears to be the real threat to the American people:
Our fed has been artificially holding inflation in check with QE. A lot of investors are concerned that as the fed pulls back inflation will soar and we will end up in a period of stagflation.
The high tax rates that Kennedy inherited from the period after the war were excessive and creating a drag on the economy. After the Kennedy tax cuts unemployment fell to the lowest peacetime level in forty years.
Tax rates are again too high on today’s producers and investors. When The Bush tax rates were set to expire in 2013 Obama extended them for everyone but those in the highest 3% of wage earners. This is significant because this is where all the investment money is. Obamacare added higher taxes on the same group increasing the capital gains and dividend rate by nearly 60%. Obama also maintains the highest corporate tax rates in the world for American business and he restored the death tax taking 40% of inheritance over $5 million. We peons tend to think of this money in terms of how the rich can afford to live and stupidly forget that the bulk of what they have is invested, used to support growth in the economy and jobs.
Obama has the worst record for recovery following recession:
If Barack Obama wanted to boost our economy there’s plenty of history to draw from. Increasing the minimum wage is a puny solution for a gargantuan problem. But Obama is not serious about putting Americans back to work. Obama is serious about redistributing wealth…and he doesn’t care what it costs the average American out of a job, suffering on fixed income or working minimum wage and wondering how he’s going to pay off his student loans. (No worries there Obama has plans to forgive it and stick the taxpayer with the bill)
It’s fun to spend other people’s money! Remind me again about our national debt…its up to $17.7 billion and rising!
There is so much work to be done to right our ship. It’s a shame we have to pull teeth just to get people informed and educated enough to make the right decisions about our leadership…there is no excuse for this extended mini-depression.
Tina, you are so right! I don’t know why Chris is arguing with you. It virtually goes without saying among intelligent people everywhere that worker productivity was due to technology. Workers can only move so fast and produce so much. In order to stay up with cheap labor overseas the only thing we could do is turn to technology. Technology can only take this so far, but when the competition starts getting just as technological…we IS in trouble!
That’s a interesting question Jack. I guess it depends a lot on who wins the policy wars, for one thing 😉 If freedom loses we are all doomed!
It would be great if freedom won. Equity around the world would probably mean less crisis. Free people living under Democracy and the rule of law don’t make war with one another, they have and keep disease under control, and they see to it that folks can eat. In this best case scenario it would depend on how much we continue to value competition and free markets.
I know first hand that technology has made it easier to produce. In bookkeeping my own labor has been eased by hours. When we started our business computers for everyday use were still very new (and cost about $6K). They were, by today’s standards, s…l…o…w and awkward. The learning curve took a bit of time.
Through that change we now no longer need the services of photographers, printing companies, or draftsmen. Payroll once took at least an hour. I had to calculate every tax for every employee and the company each payday and write the checks by hand. Then the tax deposits had to be taken to the Quarterly reports were the same…wow. Fax machines, email, everything moves quickly and easily now.
It takes about 10 minutes to do payroll. Paying bills is just as easy and quick. My job has practically disappeared and it takes a real dummy to do it 🙂
But I remember all of the panic and fear about how computers were going to replace all of us back then. Instead they helped to create an explosion of new jobs and innovations. I imagine the same will happen again here in America if we can get passed this administration and come through without a major economic event or devastating terror attack. The breakthroughs in medicine and technology are going to be amazing in the next thirty years.
You and me?
We’ll be sittin in the porch rocker watching the world go by!
In the world according to Dewey theft is okay as long as the government authorizes and sanctions it for redistribution.
What someone earns and builds over many years, his property, is not really his property at all; it is just another account for the government to draw from, right?
This shows no respect for property rights. If government power is placed above the right of one individual it is placed above the rights of all.
Freedom, the rule of law, the Constitution, separation/balance of power, and a thriving economy are the best defenses against oligarchy rule. When property rights are honored and not compromised the resulting growth of the middle class, from which anyone can achieve and amass wealth, ensures that a handful of families are not able to control.
Why is it that some people escape socialism and embrace freedom while others escape it and then try to destroy what we have in America and replace it with the very thing they left?
“In the world according to Dewey theft is okay as long as the government authorizes and sanctions it for redistribution.”
No, that is the world according to literally every single Western democracy since before you were born.
“When property rights are honored and not compromised the resulting growth of the middle class”
And she still refuses to ignore that our country saw the greatest boost in the middle class EVER when tax rates on the rich were far more confiscatory. There is no point in arguing with such a person.
Chris: “And she still refuses to ignore that our country saw the greatest boost in the middle class EVER when tax rates on the rich were far more confiscatory.”
Chris reads about a statistic and thinks he’s “GOT ME”
Chris imagines that extremely high tax rates on private investors (the rich to OWS blockheads) CAUSES economic growth, job creation, and prosperity.
Chris ignores the FACT that those high rates were used to REBUILD EUROPE after the war (Don’t have to do that everyday) and support returning OUT OF WORK veterans in the MILLIONS (Don’t have to do that everyday either).
Chris is an ignoramus that thinks government forcing higher wages on less than 2% of workers will create economic growth strong enough to put a huge dent in the unemployment numbers (2/3 of working aged Americans).
Chris believes compensation for work performed is based on a PERSONS worth rather than the worth to the company of work performed, therefore a living wage should be forced whether the wage can be paid or not. that means Chris believes he can buy groceries with empty pockets!
Chris has problems understanding incentive and cause and effect.
Chris doesn’t understand how wealth is created…doesn’t get the mechanisms that cause the creation of wealth.
Chris doesn’t understand that people put their savings AT RISK and in doing so CREATE JOB OPPORTUNITY when there is a chance for a good return on their investment. When the tax rate on that money is high the money doesn’t get invested. The rich, in fact, look for ways to PROTECT THEIR EXTRA MONEY! Surprise! They want to keep what belongs to them.
Tina the GOP obstruction in congress is the current problem. It’s funny you type this stuff when the Tea party Playbook is public.
Reaganomics have destroyed the middle class over the years. Pulling the left into these privatization policies with them. The left equates to the Right in the 80’s. Globalization… planned. Even Bush talked about the New World Order of Globalization!
I could care less about 401K’s they were created to make people dependent on wall street banks our masters.. The Banks rip us the people off!
The old school pensions were best.
You act like these companies keep the money in America and Invest! China invests here!
Do you know what an Inversion even is?
The economics and charts are there. How does privatizing everything for foreign investors help Americans? The profits trickle right out of the country.
Also you support low wages big CEO wages in the millions a year, then gripe people are poor?
I suspect you just watch your privatized retirement fund and care about yourself.
You have a problem looking at real economics and the charts since the 60’s. I read the fake Koch economics and laugh when I see them reprinted.
http://www.businessinsider.com/profits-versus-wages
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/14/this-graph-is-the-best-argument-for-raising-the-minimum-wage/
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/06/business/workers-wages-chasing-corporate-profits-off-the-charts.html?_r=0
http://truth-out.org/news/item/24188-new-report-documents-how-privatization-steals-wages-harms-communities
Very Interesting you support foreign investors to profit off slave labor here.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/sunday-review/americas-productivity-climbs-but-wages-stagnate.html
http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/03/news/economy/record-corporate-profits/index.html
http://www.prwatch.org/news/2014/06/12503/new-report-documents-how-privatization-steals-wages-harms-communities
Capitalism hits the fan!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZU3wfjtIJY
Stop calling people names like – Chris is an “ignoramus”
Retired people have no idea what the work market is like.
Also if food prices go up and wages down how does that help?
You are not correct but that is your taught opinion.
No one calls you names. Koch Tea Party economics are debunked already. But you are entitled to an opinion.
Everybody got raped in the crash. I lost allot!
You can not prove these economics they are already proven wrong by economists The real ones not on their payroll!
The second Phase market crash brought austerity the crash of 2016 will bring 3rd world country that is what they want..make American workers compliant to the Oligarchy.
A Decent living wage is all people want. The CEO’s can collect their millions but people will not be slaves…The Revolution has started worldwide!
Tina: “Chris imagines that extremely high tax rates on private investors (the rich to OWS blockheads) CAUSES economic growth, job creation, and prosperity.”
No, that is not what I said.
I said that we’ve had a period where extremely high tax rates on the rich coexisted with a boom in the middle class.
I never said the former caused the latter. I am not attempting to prove that raising taxes on the wealthy stimulates the economy. I am attempting to prove that raising taxes on the wealthy does not necessarily stunt the economy.
I’ve acknowledged that tax rates on the wealthy during the 40s and 50s were punitively high, and I have no desire to go back to those rates. I’ve also acknowledged that JFK and Reagan’s tax cuts–at least most of them–were probably good for the economy. I especially admire Reagan’s decision to raise the capital gains tax to make it equal with the earned income tax–a move that no Republican would be able to make in today’s political landscape.
That doesn’t mean I have to conclude that tax rates on the rich today–which are much lower than they were then–are too high, and need to be lowered. All available evidence and history tells us that the opposite is true; when taxes on the wealthy are as low as they are today, income inequality is the inevitable result. When we structure our system to give the rich more and more advantages and the poor less and less, the income gap widens. This is not a surprise.
“Chris ignores the FACT that those high rates were used to REBUILD EUROPE after the war (Don’t have to do that everyday) and support returning OUT OF WORK veterans in the MILLIONS (Don’t have to do that everyday either).”
I’m not ignoring it, I just don’t see what it has to do with anything. Of course we don’t face those exact challenges today, but we do face many other important challenges, and fighting them costs money.
“Chris is an ignoramus that thinks government forcing higher wages on less than 2% of workers will create economic growth strong enough to put a huge dent in the unemployment numbers (2/3 of working aged Americans).”
That alone will not create economic growth strong enough to reduce unemployment. I do believe it is an important factor in doing so. The CBO found that the initial effect of the increase will be a slight increase in unemployment of about 500,000. But at the same time it would lift 2 million people out of poverty. That’s a sensible trade-off, and it will pay off in the long run because it will boost demand, thus businesses will have more customers, thus they will be able to hire more people.
“Chris believes compensation for work performed is based on a PERSONS worth rather than the worth to the company of work performed,”
Nope. I’ve never said that. I specifically said it is the work that is being undervalued, not the person.
“therefore a living wage should be forced whether the wage can be paid or not.”
It can be paid. I’ve seen the numbers. The disemployment effect of a min. wage increase is small because labor costs are only one part of the cost of doing business. Small price increases and minor cutbacks are the only consistent effects across the board. The trade-off is worth it.
You think my opinion is based on ideology because that is how you make your decisions. But I’ve looked at the evidence, I’ve done a cost-benefit analysis, and I’ve concluded that the benefits outweigh the costs. Today’s Republican party lacks that pragmatic streak almost entirely; they focus ONLY on the costs of things they already oppose on an ideological basis, and ONLY the benefits of the things they support for the same reason. It’s why they support voter ID even though they’ve been shown proof that the amount of eligible voters who will stay home is FAR greater than the amount of fraudsters who will be stopped–a number that is closer to zero percent than it is to one percent. It’s why they support drug testing welfare recipients, which has been proven to LOSE the government money. It’s why they oppose government-funded contraception even though it stops abortion and is cheaper than welfare. And so on.
“Chris has problems understanding incentive and cause and effect.”
No, I do not. You can lower taxes and regulations all you want, it will not create incentive to hire more people. Only higher demand will do that. Unless you get more cash into the pockets of the working and middle classes, that demand is never going to come your way.
“Chris doesn’t understand how wealth is created…doesn’t get the mechanisms that cause the creation of wealth.”
You still think wealth is created by the wealthy, when that just isn’t so. Wealth is created by a strong middle class.
This wealthy entrepreneur gets it:
http://articles.latimes.com/2014/feb/17/nation/la-na-tt-job-creator-20140216
“When the tax rate on that money is high the money doesn’t get invested.”
That’s nice, but irrelevant, since tax rates on the wealthy are currently not high.
Tina: “You just don’t want to say that the best way for anyone to make better pay and more money is to get better training, education, or experience!”
I’ll say it now: the best way for anyone to make more money is to get better training, education, and experience.
The problem is that this is no longer the guarantee it used to be, and workers are more likely today than any time in the past to do all of these things, and still be stuck working min. wage. You know this.
But still you insist on this bootstrap rhetoric so that you don’t have to take responsibility for the effects of your policies.
Dewey, I don’t agree with everything you wrote (the phrase “New World Order” creeps me out) but that Washington Post article you linked to was right on the money:
“That red line is corporate profits since 1970. The blue line is labor’s share of income. As you can see, corporate profits are skyrocketing while labor’s share of those profits is falling. This is a big part of the reason that median wages are stagnating even as the economy grows and the wealthy become ever more fabulously rich.”
Tina and most Republicans argue that if we just let that red line go up even higher–through lowering taxes, lifting regulations, and now, in a radical turn, eliminating the minimum wage completely–then eventually the blue line will go up too. The fact that this hasn’t happened already doesn’t really mean anything to them. Clearly, the rising tide of corporate profits hasn’t lifted the boats of blue collar workers.
That’s because the tide is a better analogy for the workers, and the wealthy and corporations are not so much boats as they are hovercrafts, allowing them to float far above the surface without ever even touching the ocean.
The world is not fair. Some people invent things like Facebook and the Ipod and the world throws money at them. It’s not a crime. Redistribution is nothing more than sanctioned theft.
EARN!
SAVE!!!
INVEST!!!!
Make your own damn fortune and while you are tallying things up please note the number of people that refuse to finish school, refuse to get training, and refuse to work…they are a real heavy weight on the have-nots side of the scales.
You live in a free country. Be happy!
The refusal to acknowledge systemic problems doesn’t make them go away, Tina. It just makes you look ignorant and callous.