By Jack
When it comes to human rights everyone who has been protected by them has a solemn duty to speak up for those who are not. There was a time in America when some radicals believed the Bible said slavery was acceptable. If you believed that, you could also believe it was wrong to tolerate the abolitionists. This is why the abolition movement in the North was met with a number of violent events. Fortunately, we overcame our divisions and became a stronger and more just nation because we did, but at a great cost.
Islam is at a similar fork in the road. Muslims find themselves opposing each over equal rights just as we once did. This great conflict, this social revolution, has turned violent at times and it could get worse… a lot worse. Which is all the more reason to support the side for tolerance and justice and oppose those who think stoning women and gays is acceptable, or killing infidels will please Allah.
Countless acts of terrorism done in the name of God/Allah have pitted the radicals against those of us who believe in this nation’s founding principles of inalienable rights. the division is that clear and its a simple case of either you are for civil-rights or you’re not. You can’t claim to support them here and then turn a blind eye to the inhumanity done by fanatics in other countries.
Many Muslims support equal rights and they deserve our support in return, because they’re taking the biggest risks by confronting the radicals within their faith and their community. They’re trying to make a fundamental change for the good and so are we, so we have a common cause and a common enemy.
Abdel Fattah el-Sisi, the President of Egypt gave a remarkable speech about the Muslim world and their evolving reality recently, unfortunately it seems all but missed on the Western world. Yet, it right on target. It was one of the most powerful and eloquent rebukes of radical Islam and their violence to date. The Egyptian President called for a “religious revolution,” asking Muslim leaders to help in the fight against extremism.
In his speech, given on the Prophet Muhammad’s birthday, which coincided with New Year’s Day, he said they had no time to lose. “I say and repeat, again, that we are in need of a religious revolution. You imams are responsible before Allah. The entire world is waiting on you. The entire world is waiting for your word … because the Islamic world is being torn, it is being destroyed, it is being lost. And it is being lost by our own hands,” el-Sisi said as he focused on radicalized Islam that is spreading terrorism around the world.
“We need a revolution of the self, a revolution of consciousness and ethics to rebuild the Egyptian person — a person that our country will need in the near future,” the President said. El-Sisi, himself a pious man, was elected in May after leaving the military to run for the office. Source of this story, CNN.
Confronting radical-Islam in demonstrations is not likely to bring peace in our time, but it’s a start, and it may bring peace in our Grandchildren’s time.
The murders at Charlie Hebdo was the last straw for myself and many others. Its caused us to be galvanized into a common global cause. Our mission here is to join with others around the world in defense of free speech and inalienable human rights for no other reason than its the right thing to do.
I’m hoping that at 11 a.m. on January 24th you will join myself others in downtown Chico at the corner of 3rd and Main as a visible sign of solidarity against terrorism and in support of inalienable human rights.
Our slogan is, Je Suis Charlie – I am Charlie. It’s time to be counted, won’t you help?
PS This is intended to be a peaceful protest to condemn in the strongest possible terms what happened to the magazine, Charlie Hebdo, in Paris. We need to stand-up for human rights and peace…. everywhere, because terrorism is everywhere. It should only take about an hour of your time to make our presence known. I hope you can make it. Anyone is welcome as long as you’re, reasonable.
Won’t be able to attend, but will be there in spirit!
I am debating whether I should participate or not.
Firstly, I am not Charlie.
Secondly, while the magazine has become a icon of freedom of speech standing against the totalitarianism, intolerance and violence of Islam, they themselves have rejected that role and have heaped scorn their “new friends”.
‘We vomit on all these people who suddenly say they are our friends’
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/charlie-hebdo-cartoonist-scoffs-vomits-supporters-article-1.2072906
I’ll make up my mind later. In any case, the surgery I require may make the thought of participation moot.
Pie I share your concerns. Charlie Hebdo is not a cute, virtuous magazine. They heap ridicule on almost everything and everyone. Some people have been provoked to do violence because of their cartoons or editorials, but this is the point. Every time we resist being intimidated and express ourselves freely we are supporting the greater good.
Re: “Confronting radical-Islam in demonstrations is not likely to bring peace in our time, but it’s a start, and it may bring peace in our Grandchildren’s time.
The murders at Charlie Hebdo was the last straw for myself and many others. Its caused us to be galvanized into a common global cause. Our mission here is to join with others around the world in defense of free speech and inalienable human rights for no other reason than its the right thing to do.”
No problem with that here, but the Charlie Hebdo related terrorism was not the last straw for me. Not even 9-11 was the last straw for me. Islam ran out of straws decades before that with me.
Islam is a total system of rule by intimidation and death. Under Islam, it alone determines the rules for politics, social behavior, and law. That is not a religion. It is totalitarianism. Period. The “religion of peace” is the peace of submission and the grave.
Islam is hell.
Addenda to the above: There is a reformation movement going on in Islam, but I do not see it having any significant effect.
I have posted this many times in the past, but I will post it again —
The American Islamic Forum for Democracy
http://aifdemocracy.org/about/staff/founder-president/
As far at I am concerned Islam is completely antithetical to western values of human liberty and justice and will remain so until it undergoes a reformation.
Those who defend it are useful fools.
American Islamic Forum for Democracy founder Zuhdi Jasser on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P35E31THd8
“Many in the west from media to government to universities have actually facilitated the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood movement and their front groups and the ideology of political Islam under the guise of political correctness. Little do they know that they have facilitated and ideology incompatible with liberty and western society.”
American Islamic Forum for Democracy founder Zuhdi Jasser on YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P35E31THd8
Around the 11 minute mark.
Dr. Zuhdi Jasser Refutes Obama’s claim that “ISIS is not Islamic”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vh0cNm49zE
Great article, Jack. I will have to see if similar protests are happening in the Fresno area.
Pie: “Islam is hell.”
I hope you decide against going to the Chico event since I’m not sure you’d be able to abide by this:
“PS This is intended to be a peaceful and respectful protest. No haters or hate speech please!!!”
Dear Chris, please be so kind as to go **** yourself with your juvenile and specious warnings. Islam is hell. Totalitarian hell. Check the above posts on American Islamic Forum for Democracy, you sfb jerk with your head up your ***.
By the way, if Islam is not hell, why are so many Muslims fleeing Islamic states? It does not take a genius to figure that out, but perhaps Chris is the exception. Stupid is stupid.
Unfortunately, the majority of those Muslims fleeing Islamic states bring totalitarian and intolerant Islam with them. So they become a problem in the countries so stupid as to welcome them.
Evidently Chris is like the majority of liberals, they do not see totalitarianism and fascism when it is in their face. Why? The insane political correctness nonsense they cling to. Chris is completely blind to Islamo-fascism.
I am not blind to Islamofascism. I have condemned Islamofascism and the terrorism it inspires on this website many times.
I find many problematic elements in the religion of Islam, and no religion is above critique.
What I refuse to do is condemn all of Islam with a bigoted statement such as “Islam is hell.”
Wasn’t it Tina who said that liberals are “incapable of making distinctions?” Who claimed that “no one” is condemning all of Islam? It seems that Pie is the only one here who refuses to make distinctions between Islam and Islamofascism, and who condemns the entire religion because of the actions of some.
I’d be curious to know if you have watched any of the you tube video of Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, Chris.
Jasser speaks honestly and eloquently on the subject of radical Islam, the need for reform, and the blessing freedom in America has been to his family.
I can’t imagine disagreeing with anything he says.
Jack this is a good idea. I too am unable to attend but I certainly will be there with you in spirit.
Pie at #8 Wow did Jasser nail it at the end or what!!!!!
Islam is Islamo-fascism. It is totalitarianism. Get a clue Chris. I agree with Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, a devout Muslim, on that.
Tina: “I can’t imagine disagreeing with anything he says.”
I plan on watching it later tonight. But I’m curious, does he say “Islam is hell?” I don’t disagree with examining the problems in Islam and calling for reform. I do disagree with bigoted statements that demonize an entire religion.
I also disagree with the idea that a commenter should continually tell others to “go to hell” and to “go **** themselves” with nary a word from the moderators who promised to do better and enforce rules of civility no more than than two weeks ago.
Your attack dog is off his leash. Something needs to be done.
No, Dr. Zuhdi Jasser does not say “Islam is hell”. That was my statement. Dr. Zuhdi Jasser does describe the current state of Islam, which I believe is hell, totalitarian hell.
I am not demonizing and entire religion, Islam is no religion. It is a complete political/social/judicial form of fascism.
And no, I am not Tina’s “dog”.
See how it works, folks? Chris, who so objects to my calling him what he is turns around and calls me a dog and a bigot. He has been doing this for years to me and others in this forum. When I launch his treatment of others right back in his face he whines and moans and pees his pants.
So it goes.
Sorry, but I can’t stop laughing at this pathetic hypocrite.
Pie: “Islam is Islamo-fascism.”
Bigoted.
” It is totalitarianism. Get a clue Chris. I agree with Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, a devout Muslim, on that.”
How is it even possible for someone to not see the glaring contradiction in this? How could a devout Muslim who disagrees with Islamofascism POSSIBLY believe that “Islam is Islamofascism?” If he really believed that Islam was Islamofascism, he would have to either a) stop being a devout Muslim or b) start supporting Islamofascism.
How does your head not implode from the cognitive dissonance?
How is it you miss so many keywords in a sentence, Chris?
Can you observe the Middle East and not plainly see that “the current state of Islam” is “totalitarian” in nature or that “Islam is Islamo-fascism” in practice?”
We are not discussing individual Muslims but the state of the religion as practiced in nations with the most influence about how the religion is defined and practiced.
As was the practice in fascist Germany prior to/during WWII, little is being done to counter the fascist aspects of the “cult”. As Pie pointed out, it’s not a religion but a religious, social, legal and political tyrannical organization for many Muslims across the globe. there are Muslims rotting in prisons that have tried to bring the religion into this century.
You are blinded by your own need to label people as bigots before you even understand what they are saying. How does your head not implode from the sheer narrowness in your thinking?
Chris and Pie, when it comes down the most fundamental parts, we’re pretty much in agreement. And it’s reason enough to resist and common threat. At the very least, let’s agree to support the Muslim resistance for a more fair and just world and free speech for everyone.
Pie: “I am not demonizing and entire religion, Islam is no religion”
This twisted logic is no different from those who say that anti-Semitism isn’t racist because Judaism is not a race.
“Can you observe the Middle East and not plainly see that “the current state of Islam” is “totalitarian” in nature or that “Islam is Islamo-fascism” in practice?””
No, because there are millions of Muslims who do not practice the totalitarian form of Islam.
The need to stop the totalitarian element is unquestionable. But the Bush administration was at least wise enough to understand that the types of gross generalizations you are encouraging here only damage the fight. Conflating Islam with Islamofascism is what the terrorists want.
Stop giving the terrorists what they want.
Chris one of the major obstacles to peaceful coexistence is the vast number of Muslim fundamentalists that still believe it’s right to kill for offenses in the older interpretations of the Koran and as found in Sharia Law. These would be the offenses that are not even a criminal offense elsewhere in the Western world or offense that have been removed from the modern Koran. Unfortunately, we talking about millions of misguided, backward thinking people. And what’s even worse they are pushed along by their Imams. Think about it, the very guys who hold great influence over their 10th century inhumanity are the ones telling them to think this way!
I’ve heard a number of pollings show between 60% to 80% of Muslims in Islamic countries still subscribe too or mostly favor extremist views regarding women who report rapes, adultery, apostasy and many more things we in the West left behind centuries ago.
This divergence of opinion is a major cultural clash! It pits a minority of moderate Muslims in the radicalized countries against a vast majority of radical, violent prone, Muslims. Obviously, those moderates need our support to help with reform. Examples of the countries in which we find such extremist views (and terrorism) are Egypt, Pakistan, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Maldives, Iran, Yemen, Sudan, Eritrea, Libya, Nigeria, Uzbekistan, Central African Republic, Ethiopia, Qatar, Turkmenistan, Myanmar (Burma), Brunei, Oman, Sri Lanka, Tunisia, Bhutan and more. This is a very long list and represents 10’s of millions of backward thinking Muslim extremists!
In these 3rd world countries they have either laws restraining the practice of free speech or free religious choice and they often encourage persecution of Christians and other religions. This is just intolerable and it needs to be reformed. They deny either directly by their law or by group intimidation many of the freedoms we take as common place and call inalienable rights and that is just as intolerable too. Because sooner or later their views lead them to violent clashes with moderate Muslims or Western values and we are victimized by them. Look at 9/11, look at all the terrorism in the name of radical Islam.
Too many times we have heard that the fundamentalist branch of Islam has declared war on us, and we’ve got the body count to prove it. We’ve seen too many examples of terrorism to deny this reality and we can’t run away from it hoping it will go away.
This is why it is so incredibly important to have a united front against this sort of 10th century thinking and barbarism. This is why we don’t want people criticizing the good side for some ancient misdeeds in Christianity. Its not help to try to make the moral equivalency argument relative to what is happening now in the Islamic world. It is not at all helpful and it’s just stupid because the first people to get the axe are going to be the so-called liberals who believe in abortion, gay marriage, women’s rights, LBGT rights, etc. Those people are dead if they are caught practicing their beliefs in one of these radicalized Muslim countries. But, the bottom line, by libs being petty nitpickers and railing on Halliburton or Bush when they should be condemning Muslim terrorists who killed 3000 Americans on 9/11 and many more people over the last decade around the Middle East they are hurting the forces of reform in Islam and dragging us deeper into deadly confrontations. They are hurting their fellow Americans because they are giving ammunition to the enemies of peace and coexistence. Being one of those people can and will drag out the struggle for human-rights and increase the casualties.
So, this is all about getting one’s priorities straight, especially those on the far left. It’s about identifying the greater threat and then having the good sense and moral courage to take a stand for the greater good. There can be no buts… because it does not good to retreat from or argue this truth, this reality!
You do agree don’t you?
Challenge to Chris: Read the Qur’an! Not just parts. Read all of it!
Islamic Imams brand Dr. Zuhdi Jasser a heretic because he exposes Islam for what it is, a brutal, backwards, medieval system of repression and oppression completely antithesis to basic human rights.
Our Politically Correct Imam brands me a bigot for recognizing that the Islam Dr. Zuhdi Jasser describes is hell, a totalitarian hell.
I suppose I am also a bigot in the eyes of our Politically Correct Imam because I recognize the Nazism, Communism and medieval Catholicism and the Inquisition are also totalitarian hells.
In light of Chris’ ugly charge (of which he has a long habit of making against anyone who disagrees with him) I think what Dr. Zuhdi Jasser has to say about Politically Correct useful fools is worthwhile repeating —
“Many in the west from media to government to universities have actually facilitated the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood movement and their front groups and the ideology of political Islam under the guise of political correctness. Little do they know that they have facilitated and ideology incompatible with liberty and western society.”
Now, I expect that many Muslims who have migrated to the US did so to flee the hell of Islam. Unfortunately it appears that many also brought it right along with them.
Western values and western law and basic human rights are not compatible with political Islam, which is exactly why Dr. Zuhdi Jasser has set upon his mission of Islamic reformation starting with the first principle of separation of mosque and state.
Sorry about all the grammatical errors in the above, but I am not going to bother with repairing and re-posting.
What Chris fails to realize, and what the devout Muslim Dr. Zuhdi Jasser knows from personal experience is that Islam is not a merely a “religion”. It is a complete and total totalitarian political/social/judicial/religious system. As such, in my view, Islam is not a religion as we understand the role of religion here in the west. It is this entire system of totalitarian control that Chris refuses to recognize.
Because I recognize what Islam is I am lambasted by our Politically Correct Imam and labeled a heretic (bigot). He has no idea how much he sounds just like the odious, disparaging and condemning Islamic Imam cartoons that populate YouTube (there are many examples).
To this rabid, spittle flecked, tin pot bully I say, “Go soak your head.”
Re 23 Chris: “No, because there are millions of Muslims who do not practice the totalitarian form of Islam.”
There are no multiple forms of Islam. Either you practice Islam or you do not. Again, Islam is a total complex system that prescribes behavior for every aspect of human life. It is by its very nature totalitarian. There are Muslims who do not practice Islam. There are Muslims who are trying to reform Islam. But Islam still is Islam and until it undergoes a reformation it will breed radicals and terrorists and brutally oppress and savage not only its own adherents but all others who get in its way.
Some day you might realize this, but I think not. You are too much of a close minded politically correct fool.
Chris: “The need to stop the totalitarian element is unquestionable. But the Bush administration was at least wise enough to understand that the types of gross generalizations you are encouraging here only damage the fight. Conflating Islam with Islamofascism is what the terrorists want.”
Apparently you don’t realize the part you play in “damaging the fight”.
Those who refuse to acknowledge the enemy by constantly defending the religion as no different than any other religion also give the enemy what it wants. Obama has announced to the world that the war is over. He and his administration have carefully avoided the “bad words” for some time now and yet the enemy has only grown stronger with a broader foot print.
The difference between Bush and Obama is that Bush respected the enemy but at the same time let them know we would hunt them down and kill them wherever they were…and he did!
Obama’s latest effort is community service oriented outreach and intervention. Its like begging a bully to stop. The result is they see how weak and helpless (and clueless) we are!
the only good that has come of Obama’s lousy leadership is that it’s forcing other leaders to try and figure out what to do themselves. Retired generals are publicly guiding them since Obama has decided not to listen to the professionals in the military.
Obama has not taken Page from the Bush playbook and to suggest is really absurd. Obama doesn’t carry the much needed big stick.
I question that millions of Muslims practice their religion in peace, since so many of them are under the thumbs of tyrannical political leaders and Imams.
Pie: “There are no multiple forms of Islam.”
Amazingly incorrect.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/muslims-adhere-to-different-islamic-sects.html
“There are Muslims who do not practice Islam.”
Impossible by definition. I highly doubt Dr. Jasser would agree that he does not “practice Islam.”
Tina:
“Those who refuse to acknowledge the enemy”
I do acknowledge the enemy. The enemy is radical Islam. The enemy is not Islam as a whole. Bush knew this; I wish you did.
” by constantly defending the religion as no different than any other religion also give the enemy what it wants.”
How so? The enemy doesn’t want Islam to be seen as “no different from any other religion,” they want it to be seen as supreme. And they want people, especially other Muslims, to believe that Islam requires them to oppress and kill infidels. If we want to win we have to counter that erroneous belief.
“Obama has announced to the world that the war is over.”
This is simply untrue.
“The difference between Bush and Obama is that Bush respected the enemy but at the same time let them know we would hunt them down and kill them wherever they were…and he did!”
That you can type this knowing that Bush gave up on Osama bin Laden and Obama hunted him down and killed him is hilarious.
“I question that millions of Muslims practice their religion in peace, since so many of them are under the thumbs of tyrannical political leaders and Imams.”
Perhaps you should ask yourself some of these questions first.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/hindtrospectives/2014/08/7-questions-to-ask-before-asking-if-muslims-condemn-terrorism/
Chris: ” The enemy is not Islam as a whole. Bush knew this; I wish you did.”
Why do you lie? Why do you insist on insulting me with your lies?
I have been clear from the start that the enemy we face does not include all people of the Muslim faith. I was the first to post video and articles from Dr. Jasser. When we posted articles about terrorists we called them terrorist. Muslims that practice their faith in peace, as Dr. Jasser has, are not terrorists. We were not talking about them. Unfortunately it is Muslims that practice a tyrannical, fascist, oppressive brand of Islam and they are in control of many nations in the ME. It’s unfortunate for decent, freedom loving Muslims but it’s not my fault or the fault of the western world. It is just the way itis.
Through the years you have seemed to be of the opinion that Muslims were too sensitive or stupid to discern the difference or get what I was saying. You thought it was up to you to silence me/us and force us to temper our words in silly phrases like “overseas contingency operations” and “workplace violence.” We had to conform and you refse to accept anything less! Put another way, Chris, you showed an extreme amount of insensitivity and bigotry both toward us and toward peaceful Muslims and you showed yourself to be cut from a similarly tyranical cloth. When I defended myself against your assumptive accusations and bigotry you imagined that as further evidence that I believe all Muslims are terrorists.
This is completely idiotic. You’re a lefty. You think like a lefty and that makes you, in my opinion, a very dangerous person. While you are busy trying to fix things so everyone can always be comfortable and the defend the leader of our nation whose busy playing psychologist and case worker, the enemy is plotting to blow people up and further terrorize the world. Those extremists that fund and back the terrorists have even greater designs on our world and we are falling behind. We are losing ground.
You are barely passed step one in a twelve step program; you’re not really in denial anymore but you still really do not get it!
“How so? The enemy doesn’t want Islam to be seen as “no different from any other religion,” they want it to be seen as supreme.”
See…not in denial but you really don’t get it. As long as you try to silence people who are critical you stand with the enemy! You help them in their efforts to keep us disarmed and properly obedient. You play right into their RULE that nobody is allowed to criticize them. Several people were murdered recently…do you have any idea at all what freedom really means and what it is to live without it. Dr. Jasser does and many people who came here to escape the tyranny in their native countries do too. They know who the enemy is better than you or I.
Has it ever occured to you that silencing us is part of their war plan. Intimidation is a huge part of their game plan and you are willing to bend to it, as is our current President. President Bush NEVER did that…never!
“This is simply untrue.”
US News, “Obama: Global War on Terror Over”
Western Journalism, “Obama Says the War on terror is Over”
The Weekly Standard Podcast, “Obama: The War is Over”
Breitbart, “Obama Admin: The War On Terror Is ‘Over'”
Isn’t that special?
And from the National Journal:
Yep, sure has worked out well so far.
By the way those who believe the Muslim Brotherhood are “relatively moderately Islamists” are as clueless as you and our President.
Investigtive Project, “FBI Chief: Muslim Brotherhood Supports Terrorism”:
“Bush gave up on Osama bin Laden”
What utter horse hockey.
“Obama hunted him down and killed him”
Obama didn’t have a thing to do with it. He showed up in a casual jacket to watch the video and take credit for what our Special forces and a heck of a lot of hard working researchers did. He was in the right place at the right time. Waterboarding provided the key clue that led those researchers to his encampment!
You lefties have no shame nor are you willing to be honest.
“Perhaps you should ask yourself some of these questions first.”
Perhaps you, and they, should ask yourselves how effective it’s been.
But that is not what I was asking, although I get how eager you were to once again remonstrate! I was saying I find it hard to believe that the majority of Muslims practice the faith in peace since so many live under tyrannical oppression in the ME and do not really have the choice. they are murdered, imprisoned, oppressed, beaten, and controlled.
Fair enough, but Sufis, Baha’is and Ahmadiyyas Druze, Alevis, and `Alawis do not adhere to political Islam where Sunni and Shi`ite.
By the way, I have not been blanketing all Muslims,that is a misrepresentation Chris is all too happy to foster. If I were promoting such, I would include Dr. Zuhdi Jasser in that group of core Islamics.
I have tried to make it clear what Islam actually is. The Islam that is the state religion of not merely Islamic nations but the Islam that is carried by those fleeing Islamic nations.
That Islam is the core of the majority of Islam. It is not some radical extremist sect, it is the mainstream. Islam as a complete totalitarian political, legislative, judicial, social, and religious system is mainstream Islam.
I am not lying about this system, I am not a bigot as the vile Chris likes to portray me as. This system IS hell, totalitarian hell. It is not the hell of a small group of radicals, it is the hell of mainstream Islam as practiced in Islamic nations.
“Why do you lie? Why do you insist on insulting me with your lies?”
I did not lie. You seemed to be defending Pie’s statements that “Islam is hell and “Islam is Islamofascism.” There is no difference between those statements and saying that Islam is the enemy.
I am well aware of your many statements that you don’t think all Muslims are radicalized. But as long as you defend statements like “Islam is Islamofascism,” then you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Tina, you are right that Obama did declare the global war on terror over, but that has not led him away from wiping out terrorists across the globe.
Bush said himself that bin Laden was no longer a priority and Obama campaigned on making him priority again. Once in office he lived up to that promise. These are facts and we have been through them before, but like always you ignore them because they are inconvenient. You are still claiming that waterboarding led to bin Laden which has been completely debunked in the Senate report. Now I know you still won’t read this report because it makes your side look bad and therefore must be a conspiracy designed to do only that, but it contained tons of documented proof for each of its assertions. Even Donald Rumsfeld has said that waterboarding did not lead to bin Laden:
http://www.newshounds.us/2011/05/04/rumsfeld_tries_to_recast_his_comments_about_waterboarding_and_the_killing_of_osama_bin_laden.php
What you implied about Bush, Chris, is that Bush meant he didn’t care about getting Bin Laden and that is a deception.
This is just political slant on his words. The truth is he knew getting Bin Laden would not happen as a result of his efforts but as a result of those in the CIA whose job was to connect the dots to FIND him. He trusted the professionals to do that job and he would have stepped up to the plate had they found him during his term just as Obama did. Bush didn’t need to stand in public, chin raised, and take credit for what was accomplished. He always credited those who actually did the work…both in our military and government and those in the ME who were willing to risk their lives to help us.
“…like always you ignore them because they are inconvenient”
You demonstrate that your focus is always on the political and your comments, borrowed from leftist political spin, rarely contain insightful or independent observation. You would have to be willing to just be an observer to notice the difference between Obama’s narcissistic approach and his reluctant, lead from behind, posture as compared to the service oriented approach of the Bush administration.
This is typical of those who favor left politics. The only goal they have is to establish socialist big government fascism with themselves in positions of power and personal gain. Every decision has it’s basis in that grounding. Every speech is constructed for political advantage. It’s symbolic rather than substantive. The importance of killing Bin Laden was significant because it served to give Obama something to crow about, for his political shine, rather than to serve in the effort to defeat radical Islamist terrorists.
“You are still claiming that waterboarding led to bin Laden which has been completely debunked…”
You continue to mark as definitive the left political view which the left controlled (at the time) Senate created for just that purpose. It is opinion at best. There are other opinions. some believe identifying the courier was a significant puzzle piece that led to subsequent pieces that allowed them to find Bin Laden…your side chooses to not believe that. I have no idea what Rumsfeld said so I can’t speak to that. For all I know the left has deceitfully spun his words to fit a political Alinsky #12 screed to destroy the Bush presidency. The left hates Rumsfeld but are happy as hell to use him.
” Now I know you still won’t read this report because it makes your side look bad…”
Why would I trust a report that was controlled so as to have narrow focus? Why would I trust an investigation that began with a targeted conclusion? Why would I trust a report that didn’t include testimony or evidence from key people? Why would I trust a report that was made for the sole purpose of advancing a political conclusion? Why would I bother to read such a deceitful piece of garbage?
“…therefore must be a conspiracy designed to do only that”
No conspiracy, just the MO used by radicals in the Democrat Party for decades!
Tina: “What you implied about Bush, Chris, is that Bush meant he didn’t care about getting Bin Laden and that is a deception.”
I implied no such thing. It remains a fact that Bush deprioritized finding bin Laden, and Obama reprioritized this. Do you honestly think these policy shifts didn’t affect the CIA’s priorities?
“I have no idea what Rumsfeld said”
I left you a link and everything. You also have Google; it would not be difficult for you to find Rumsfeld’s denial that waterboarding led to finding bin Laden.
As for your continued fact-free attempts to smear the torture report, all I can say is that it’s interesting to see where you draw the line when it comes to labeling sources as discredited. You have said many times that you are willing to read and trust reports from actual white nationalists, but you draw the line at reports written by liberals? Strange priorities.
The Feinstein hatchet job on the CIA was just that. It has nothing to do with the IBD editorial. If Chris has some evidence the report cited is erroneous, I would like to see it.
In other words, put up or shut up.
But the snotty Chris will not put up, because he can’t, all he can do is cast aspersions.
Chris: “It remains a fact that Bush deprioritized finding bin Laden, and Obama reprioritized this”
Sure if you buy that “good war” shuffle he made when he abandoned Iraq.
The fact is that bin Laden wasn’t going to be a priority for any president UNTIL HE WAS FOUND.
Obama did nothing but say a few words you found significant. The CIA work had been ongoing. All Obama had to do is say yes, show up for the “show,” and then brag a bit (No problem there)!
Geez you are one naive pup!
In context Chris…in context! (Rumsfeld)
“…but you draw the line at reports written by liberals?”
I explained in both cases where the line was drawn and why. Your purpose is Alinsky #12. No sense trying to claim the high road; you are exposed!
Let me just repeat, YOU have no idea who the radicals in your party are, nor how low they would stoop for personal and political power. No I do not trust Feinstein’s incomplete and narrowly focused “report.”
What’s your problem? Thinking a report is conclusive when none of the main witnesses have been questioned, how dumb is that?
“Sure if you buy that “good war” shuffle he made when he abandoned Iraq.”
He did not “abandon” Iraq. We left on the schedule set by Bush. Obama tried to stay in Iraq past Bush’s timetable, and was booted out.
You know this.
There is no sense arguing with someone who is just going to keep repeating the same, tired lies.