Posted by Tina
Even if I’d been home, I wouldn’t have watched the SOTU this year. Unfortunately, I couldn’t watch the Republican freshman from Iowa, Joni Ernst, who gave the Republican response either. I can post a few takes from her short remarks:
“Americans have been hurting, but when we demanded solutions, too often Washington responded with the same stale mindset that led to failed policies like Obamacare,” Ernst said, referring to the Obama health care overhaul that Republicans loathe. “It’s a mindset that gave us political talking points, not serious solutions.” – Fox Affiliate
Ernst said that with the recent terrorist attacks in Canada and France, among other locations, ‘We’ve been reminded of terrorism’s reach both at home and abroad.’ ‘We need a comprehensive plan to defeat them,’ she said, referring to al-Qaeda, ISIS ‘and those radicalized by them.’ … Rattling off the GOP’s legislative wish list, Ernst said in the new Congress her party would work to get the Keystone XL pipeline approved, repeal Obamacare, ‘correct executive overreach,’ defend life and confront Iran. – Dailymail
It wasn’t easy to find articles about either speech…was anyone watching tonight?
Nope.
Saved myself bouts of nausea and skipped Obumble’s teleprompter read/photo op.
Missed Joni’s response, but will watch it today.
The Weekly Standard today is posting a pix of Justice Ginsburg evidently asleep during Obumble’s SOTU speech.
She used her time wisely . . . . .
I to have had a fill of the chest pounding and credit taking from Obamas tepid if EVER leadership.
I am also one of the majority in America who can not watch this man and “his” ideological driven agendas.
His verbose is being challenged by a new Congress, but they must understand “just their words” are not going to replace Americas position in the world. It is going to take some strong action and tough love budget basics, along with honest foreign policy direction, not just word game semantics of the Obama administration..
This link by NBC does their fact check,(interesting) on the SOTU address:
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/fact-check-obama-claims-credit-incomplete-recovery-n290296
Obamacare is a “failure?” LOL.
71% of people who have signed up for coverage through the ACA say their coverage is good or excellent.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/179396/newly-insured-exchanges-give-coverage-good-marks.aspx
The ACA is bringing down costs:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-05/obamacare-effect-linked-to-lower-medical-cost-estimates.html
More than 8 million Americans are newly insured, with the number still on the rise.
http://hrms.urban.org/quicktakes/Number-of-Uninsured-Adults-Continues-to-Fall.html
80-85% of the newly insured are paying their premiums:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucejapsen/2014/04/02/blue-cross-plans-say-80-to-85-percent-of-obamacare-enrollees-are-paying/
Premiums are rising more slowly than before, and the CBO still predicts Obamacare will reduce the deficit:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/17/the-five-biggest-lies-about-obamacare.html
It sounds like Republicans are trying to repeal the law before the public finds out what’s in it. đ
I wasn’t going to but, like looking at a car accident I found myself watching the whole thing. To my credit it was the first one I’ve seen from beginning to end, since I reacted to his disclosing the student loan forgiveness component in ObamaCare by screaming at the TV. So, for my own health care I have abstained from self-inflected high blood pressure.
I have to give him credit for being a very good orator. His timing and presentation is perfect. The ongoing problem with this transformer is his plan to give our country away and leave the bill for future generations to pay.
Basically he said he’d work with Congress if they give him what he wants, otherwise he’ll veto any bills he doesn’t like. It was interesting to see Republicans stand and applaud while Democrats stay seated and silent. Rand Paul stated on Fox after the speech he and Barbara Boxer had worked on a bill together and had contact Obama about it, but had not received a return call from him. So, bipartisan work is being done apparently, but Obama has not appeared to be interested in working with members of Congress even though he says he is.
Have to go, but bottom line is I listened to what he said, but didn’t believe a word of it because of his long history of lying and covering up the truth. The man can not be trusted. His words are written in sand.
I ran into the parents of a high school friend yesterday at the grocery store. When I asked how he was doing they shook their head and said “there’s still no jobs out there.” I realize this is anecdotal but I hear it all the time. Why then, do we continue to hear how great it is from democrats? Part time jobs do not build an economy, and Obamacare has hurt the job market substantially.
Signing up for Obamacare and saying you have coverage isn’t the same as having actual, real health care. The problem remains that we had a good health care system and about 15% of the people didn’t have coverage. But in covering the 15% they screwed it up for the rest of us!
If Americans were truly happy with Obamacare, they wouldn’t have voted out democrats last fall. The public doesn’t want to know what’s next from Obama, they just want him out.
Guess Chris didn’t see these.
Manâs Back Surgery On Hold As Doctors Deny Covered California Coverage:
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2014/02/18/mans-back-surgery-on-hold-as-doctors-deny-covered-california-coverage/
Doctors turn cancer patients away thanks to Obamacare
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/043870_Obamacare_cancer_patients_doctor_shortage.html#ixzz3PU4G3ruk
California doctors revolt against Obamacare; 70 percent say they will boycott:
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/043279_Obamacare_California_doctors_boycott.html#ixzz3PU6ZD8nx
Cancer Survivor Told No Doctor Within 400 Miles Accepts Obamacare:
Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1279583/cancer-survivor-told-no-doctor-with-400-miles-accepts-obamacare/#DvvTR7Cci06u3XHb.99
This one affects almost 10,000 Californians.
On Californiaâs State Borders, People Struggle with Health Insurance Restrictions:
http://blogs.kqed.org/stateofhealth/2014/12/29/on-californias-state-borders-people-struggle-with-health-insurance-restrictions/
Chris at #5:
“71% of people who have signed up for coverage through the ACA say their coverage is good or excellent.”
Same poll: In addition to newly insured Americans rating their coverage and the quality of their healthcare positively, they are more satisfied than the average insured American with the cost of their health coverage. Three in four of the newly insured say they are satisfied with this aspect of their healthcare experience, compared with 61% among the general population of those with insurance. To some degree, this could reflect the fact that many who get insurance through the exchanges receive government subsidies to help reduce the overall cost of their health insurance.
If someone else is paying, who wouldn’t be satisfied!
“The ACA is bringing down costs”
The Age, “Report: Premiums rising faster than eight years before Obamacare COMBINED”
LA Times, “Obamacare: Unfair to the young middle class, punished enough already”
Breitbart, “New York Times: ObamaCare’s More Expensive than Obama Claims”
“More than 8 million Americans are newly insured, with the number still on the rise.”
Forbes:
Chicago Tribune, “Some newly insured still struggle to pay for health care”
“80-85% of the newly insured are paying their premiums”
Forbes reports this but shows the happy talk doesn’t tell the whole story,Forbes:
“Premiums are rising more slowly than before, and the CBO still predicts Obamacare will reduce the deficit”
(Rising more slowly…Maybe, but after a big jump!)
The Weekly Standard, “CBO Projections Indicate Obamacare Will Raise Deficits by $131 Billion”
“It sounds like Republicans are trying to repeal the law before the public finds out whatâs in it. ;)”
Not funny… the Democrats, who wrote a complicated and expensive law that nobody bothered to read, who lied to the American people to sell it, who bribed some democrats to get it passed, and who reallyjust wanted a foot in the door for single payer later, are deceitful, power hungery, big government, controlling, redistribution artists who are also really ignorant about the unintended consequences their grand scheme has had and will have on the middle class!
Peggy, none of your anecdotes successfully undermine the wealth of facts and stats that show most people are better off under the ACA.
The ACA is not responsible for insurance plans’ networking policies. Blaming the ACA for policies set by insurers is ludicrous.
Your claim that “70% of doctors say they will boycott Obamacare” has been debunked for quite a while:
In fact, according to Covered California, the only source with verifiable numbers, some 58,000 doctors, or more than 80% of the state’s practicing physicians, will be available to enrollees in the exchange’s health plans.
The “boycott” claim originated with Richard Pollock, a reporter at the conservative Washington Examiner, whose piece doesn’t appear to reflect how the California exchange actually works.
“That article was wrong,” says Molly Weedn, spokeswoman for the CMA. “We have no idea how many doctors are participating. We don’t collect that data.”
In fact, Pollock’s sourcing for the data in his original article, which appeared Dec. 6, is highly questionable, if not flat-out worthless. Pollock revised his story on Tuesday after he got called on it by the CMA. He now says there’s no organized boycott. But he’s still seems to have the story wrong.
Covered California says that the doctors participating in its exchange plans include 100% of Kaiser Permanente’s 14,000 California doctors, 43,000 taking HealthNet patients and 35,000 in Blue Shield’s network. (There’s probably some overlap between the latter two networks.)
Although all Kaiser doctors will be available to all Kaiser enrollees, not all the doctors in other insurance networks will be available to all those insurers’ enrollees; there are reports that some may see patients only in non-exchange plans.
The narrowing of physician networks has long been a fact of life in American healthcare and didn’t originate with the Affordable Care Act. It’s a cost-saving trend and in some respects it makes sense: Insurers make reimbursement deals with doctors, and physicians who don’t want to accept the proffered deals won’t see that company’s customers.
Judging from his original article, Pollock seems to think that Covered California somehow imposed a standard reimbursement rate on all the state’s doctors, or perhaps that insurers in the exchange pegged all reimbursements to the state’s low Medicaid reimbursement rate. Neither is true. Insurers made their own deals with doctors, and it’s unlikely that they were pegged to Medicaid (known in California as Medi-Cal). It’s possible that some were pegged to Medicare, which pays more than Medicaid, but plainly there wasn’t a one-size-fits-all reimbursement figure for all insurers and all plans.
As for Pollock’s 70% nonparticipation figure, he says he arrived at it after talking to “a half-dozen” independent insurance brokers and agents across the state. He told me their estimates were consistent.
The problem is that insurance agents have no way of estimating physician participation across the state; they’re typically small businesses that tend to operate locally; they can check for a client to see if a particular doctor or group is participating in a plan, but they don’t have access to a statewide database. They can concoct an estimate from what they see, but they’re dealing with a specialized clientele and their vision is more likely to be myopic than Lasik-clear.
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/dec/12/business/la-fi-mh-boycott-20131212
To hear conservatives tell it, you would think no one was ever denied coverage or told that doctors wouldn’t accept their coverage until Obamacare passed. The truth is that this problem was more widespread before the law and would only be worse without regulation.
Steve: “Part time jobs do not build an economy, and Obamacare has hurt the job market substantially.”
There is no evidence that Obamacare has led to an increase in part time jobs relative to full time jobs. In fact, since the implementation of the ACA, the exact opposite has happened; the percentage of part time jobs relative to full time jobs has fallen.
Data out this week from the U.S. Census Bureau shows that the percentage of Americans in full-time jobs rose last year, while the share of part-time workers fell. Nearly 73 percent of working-age men and 61 percent of women worked in full-time, year-round jobs in 2013, higher than the estimated 71 percent and 59 percent who did so the previous year.
If companies had been cutting workers’ hours or hiring more part-timers, experts note, the share of people in part-time jobs should have increased over the last year. It hasn’t.
“There’s little evidence to date that health reform has caused a shift to part-time work,” writes Paul Van de Water, a health care expert with the liberal-leaning Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, in an analysis of the latest Census numbers.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/is-obamacare-causing-a-surge-in-part-time-work/
Facts are better than anecdotes.
The difference between your post and mine Chris is you liberals are about the numbers while us conservatives are about the individuals. Each one of the articles I posted was about how ObamaCare had hurt someone personally, but that doesn’t matter to you guys. We get it.
Peggy: “Each one of the articles I posted was about how ObamaCare had hurt someone personally,”
Of course, the problem is that not one of them actually proved their assertions that Obamacare had hurt someone personally. As I already explained, Obamacare is not responsible for insurance policy’s networking policies. Nor is it responsible for the choices made by doctors of whether or not to take certain coverage. That is the responsibility of the insurance companies and doctors. Nor is it responsible for the healthcare access situation on the border. As for your article on “70% of doctors boycotting Obamacare,” that was simply made up, as you will see if you read the LA Times article.
Now, are there some individuals who are worse off now than before Obamacare? Probably, though most of the horror stories passed off by conservatives have turned out to be false. Remember Julie Boonstra? She was the poster child for Obamacare victims for a hot second, until it turned out she hadn’t even read her own policy and didn’t know she was actually saving money and getting better care.
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21625821-why-democrats-dont-boast-about-their-biggest-accomplishment-law-dare-not-speak-its
But the fact remains that most individuals are better off. When discussing how we should structure health care in this country, that is what matters. A few anecdotes about people who are worse off–mostly due to their insurance company being shifty, not due to Obamacare–is not compelling evidence that Obamacare is a failure. Unless, of course, you’ve already been rooting for Obamacare to fail for the past five years.
I’ve been to two doctors who have posted signs apologizing for not being able to accept either ACA or cash patients.
The private sector docs are being hit hard by this piece of trash law.
Obamacare has created more problems (for more people) than it purports to fix and those problems could have been solved with better legislation that didn’t disrupt or destroy so many people’s plans or jobs.
“Facts are better than anecdotes” only when they reveal the whole truth. Chris’s do not.
Government hasn’t figured out how to read minds. Jobs that will never be created because businesses make a financial decision to not expand and stay under fifty employees or choose to hire part time workers rather than full time, or choose not to open another branch under the ACA regs and other equally discouraging conditions can’t be counted only guestimated.
CBO Report – FOX:
We won’t know the full effect on jobs until later this year or next year since this (2015) is the first year businesses that got waivers have to comply.
Obamacare, the lousy economy in general, and higher minimum wage laws will cost Americans entry level jobs. When government pushes costs higher for small to medium businesses the owners have to find ways to cut their costs. The chances of increasing sales are poor because people don’t have much disposable income these day…some of that due to higher healthcare premiums, deductibles and co-pays!
Wow interesting comments.
You can thank Woodrow Wilson for the SOTU speeches. Just theater anymore.
I always watch all of them for the entertainment.
Obama did well. Only one big moment when he got the heckler with the “I know, I won both of them” He polled well during it and that surprised the heck out of me! Same path and he seemed relaxed.
Boehner looked high. Like he wanted another drink. Putting on the show for his big donors for sure. His mouth was constantly straining making me seriously wonder what he was on.
The ernst response was pretty Bad. Elementary like and not relevant to the speech.It’s still strange Boehner allowed the Ernst to give the republican response. SNL will have a good time with it. Bread bags and all!
But exactly where was her response? She did not respond just gave a sob story and pitched the 42 permanent job KXL as a jobs bill.
What is funnier yet while she was taping that KXL mis-statement another pipeline just spewed thousands of gallons of oil beneath ice in the Yellowstone.
The town can not drink it’s water and they do not know where all the oils is under the ice. Second spill into the wonderful Yellowstone. Water is a precious resource. Now we want to reward Canada by letting them cross the Keystone while we take all the risk with no reward? yea right Joani…that was the Koch pitch for sure.
Now Ted Cruz he was fun. Too bad he deleted the video from you tube but you can find it on blogs. The Flub was fun. “let me start over again” LOL he was having a hard time remembering a prewritten speech instead of responding! LOL he just sounds preachy and rehearsed. He thinks he is running for 2016 I guess. He is ineligible though. Born in Canada.
Rand Paul same old slick crap. He always has 1 good point but the rest is all flip flop jibberish.
Those are the ones I caught
Like I said it is all Theater for their fundraising …… that’s all they do fund raise.
The ACA? I was Leary of it but now I see if we worked on it …it is better than what we had.
You seem to forget that before the ACA people were being thrown off their insurance when they needed expensive procedures. when you went in for major surgery A simple blood test to detect diabetes or any ailment and you were thrown off for pre existing.
Being Pregnant was a pre existing condition even.
May I ask where you people receive your healthcare policy? What you pay? My guess is you are on government policies free.
Take a look at the want ads at the numerous medical jobs it has created. I’d say not bad for a “job killer”.
My only beef is with those who are on medi care wanting to take health insurance away from others.
The idea for the ACA was formed in the Heritage Foundation and first tried out by Romney in MA.
Myself the ACA has lowered my insurance cost and my kids are all taking medical courses cause of the amount of job openings they see.
Too bad there is no real conversation. How has the ACA affected you? Not some media stories but you? Yourself You?
No Clinton, Romney or Bush for 2016.. Time to pick a non connected true candidate
Dr Dare thanks for the drive by comments. I think a number of your facts are pure leftist script and have little to do with the truth for most Americans.
We didn’t have to destroy the health system we already had, throw people off of a plan they already liked, turn over 1/6th of the economy to an unaccountable government bureaucracy, impose massive taxes and regulations, and disrupt a lot of lives to fix a few small problems.
A bill that was a few pages long would have done the trick…even Nancy Pelosi could have read it before it passed! (No guarantee that she would actually have understood it, however.)
Until I became semi-retired I paid for my own health insurance and that of my employees (full ride). I also paid the employer half of all SS and MC benefits for them plus all of my own. Still working part time (They need the job) and still paying!
Before I owned my business I bought my own insurance for six years. Prior to that my insurance was paid by my husbands employer. I’m one of those people who create jobs and contribute rather than just take. Oh, and by the way, “free” ain’t free! Somebody pays…future generations of kids will foot the bill if we don’t do some reforms on these entitlement programs.
You’re one to talk. You like the ACA because it works (so far) for you…I did notice how self-centered your opinion is.
You don’t care that a non-elected secretary and his/her team can make legal changes to save the government money (To heck with our needs). This is a huge further step to undermine the American system in which representatives, elected by the people, write our laws.
You don’t care that this will add to our debt, just like social security and Medicare do, year after year.
You don’t care that some people are finding it difficult to meet very high deductibles ($5000 a year) and so are foregoing care. Or that others are facing much higher premiums…AS LONG AS YOU”RE OKAY, eh, Dr Dare?
Some of those who think they’re being subsidized are in for a big surprise when they do their taxes this year. The IRS has the authority to decide, based on your reported income, that your refund will be less than expected if they decide you got too much “free” subsidy for your insurance premium.
The worst thing of all about this insurance is that it represents another hit on the middle class. Too many of our citizens (How long have you been one?) don’t understand that America was strong when anyone could start with nothing and build a good life…there was that much opportunity to work, save, invest, and grow richer by accumulating wealth in a private nest egg. All it took was a bit of discipline and elbow grease. The more of that wealth our government takes to “provide” free stuff, the less opportunity there is to build.
In the last six years under Obama’s socialist policies the middle class has shrunk and more people live n poverty! Free works only until you run out of other peoples money. government doesn’t produce wealth. They only spend it. They can print money but they incur debt when they do so and devalue the dollar in your pocket.
You want conversation? Try learning how money and the economy work first. Leftist Keynesian policy is killing us man!
(Dewey?)
Tina, you said Dr. Dare (who, yes, is probably Dewey)’s comments “have little to do with the truth,” but then went on to write a comment that contained almost no truth.
“We didnât have to destroy the health system we already had,”
The health system we had was not “destroyed.”
“throw people off of a plan they already liked,”
Most were able to find a cheaper plan with better benefits. And those who lost their plans did so because their companies refused to bring their plans up to the minimum standard.
“turn over 1/6th of the economy to an unaccountable government bureaucracy,”
1/6th of the economy was not “turned over” to the government. That was 2010’s Lie of the Year. Why are you still repeating it?
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/dec/16/lie-year-government-takeover-health-care/
“impose massive taxes and regulations,”
Most low-to-middle income families and small businesses are receiving tax breaks and credits due to the ACA, not tax increases.
“A bill that was a few pages long would have done the trick⌔
This is just silly pandering to the conservative base’s allergy to complexity.
“Oh, and by the way, âfreeâ ainât free! Somebody pays⌔
Everyone here knows this, so I’m not sure why you feel this needs pointing out.
“You like the ACA because it works (so far) for youâŚI did notice how self-centered your opinion is.”
Apparently you didn’t notice this entire section:
“You seem to forget that before the ACA people were being thrown off their insurance when they needed expensive procedures. when you went in for major surgery A simple blood test to detect diabetes or any ailment and you were thrown off for pre existing.
Being Pregnant was a pre existing condition even.
May I ask where you people receive your healthcare policy? What you pay? My guess is you are on government policies free.”
How is this self-centered? I doubt Dewey is going to get pregnant any time soon. đ
“You donât care that a non-elected secretary and his/her team can make legal changes to save the government money (To heck with our needs).”
But they cannot make changes that ration care. You know this.
“You donât care that this will add to our debt”
It will not add to our debt.
“You donât care that some people are finding it difficult to meet very high deductibles ($5000 a year) and so are foregoing care.”
Obamacare is not the cause of high deductibles; in fact, the ACA put a cap on how much deductibles can cost.
http://articles.philly.com/2014-11-10/business/56394968_1_plans-law-kynect
“Or that others are facing much higher premiums⌔
Premium costs have been rising for years and the growth actually slowed after Obamacare. You know this! Why are you still falsely suggesting that Obamacare is causing premiums to go up when there is no evidence that this is true?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-premium-growth-slowed-after-obamacare/
“AS LONG AS YOUâRE OKAY, eh, Dr Dare?”
He specifically asked others here to share their personal experiences with Obamacare. What is your problem?
“The worst thing of all about this insurance is that it represents another hit on the middle class.”
Again, the middle class is getting tax *credits* as a result of Obamacare. What you’re saying just isn’t true.
“Too many of our citizens (How long have you been one?)”
What is this crack about?
“In the last six years under Obamaâs socialist policies the middle class has shrunk”
You need to look at this graph. The middle class has been shrinking for decades.
“and more people live n poverty!”
The poverty rate has actually been falling since the recession–which predates Obama–ended.
Chris: “We didnât have to destroy the health system we already had,â
I could have chosen another word but it has been altered in ways that put it on a fast track to lowered standards and delivery, higher costs, greater debt, restricted access…and too much government control. So the word “destroyed” is really a matter of perspective. The private citizen has more controls on personal decisions and the health providers do too.
“Most were able to find a cheaper plan with better benefits. And those who lost their plans did so because their companies refused to bring their plans up to the minimum standard.”
What an arrogant perspective! You don’t know whether most who were forced into what Obama calls a “better plan” is a plan that worked for every American or businessman. Better is a very subjective term; a talking point!
Companies didn’t “refuse to bring their plans up to the minimum standard.”
Most were given waivers until this year. Others found the cost for the “new and improved” plan over their budget and the regulations too intrusive and complicated. One size does not fit all, Chris.
“1/6th of the economy was not âturned overâ to the government.”
What a naive dolt! What happens to any citizen who doesn’t participate? How much more are the rich now required to pay so Obama/Pelosi/Reid could play Santa? Taxpayers, doctors and hospitals have ALL BEEN FORCED to comply with ridiculous, complex regulations…power flows from the top now concerning insurance and healthcare. That represents power and cash being taken from the people…it isn’t single payer yet but it does represent government control of 1/6th of the economy!
“But they cannot make changes that ration care. You know this.”
That’s a bunch of crap! They can do whatever they need to do to “save money.” It’s the purpose of having this board. You are too young to know how government rewrites and rewrites and rewrites the laws in these programs.
When it was passed, the government projected that 2% of earnings to $3000 would cover Social Security. Look at the history of changes our government made to this program! Don’t tell me the government can’t alter what is available or how much we must pay! They won’t call it rationing but the result will be the same. Just ask anyone that is or has been on Medical. those patients get what the government decides it can afford without the slightest regard to the needs of the patient…especially those patients with big problems.
“Most low-to-middle income families and small businesses are receiving tax breaks and credits due to the ACA, not tax increases.”
What naive bunk! And why should some jerk in DC decide where the line is between those who get and those who pay? What happened to being treated and respected as free people, equal under the law?
I can’t go on…radical progressive talking points just do not reflect reality except for those on the receiving end.
The bottom line is we could have fixed the few problems we had without all of the disruption to the lives of 85% of the people, docs, companies, and the expense which will only grow and grow.
Tina: “I could have chosen another word but it has been altered in ways that put it on a fast track to lowered standards and delivery,”
No, standards are higher.
“higher costs,”
No, costs are rising more slowly than previously.
“greater debt,”
No, it lowers the debt and the deficit.
“restricted access⌔
No, access to healthcare has been expanded.
“What an arrogant perspective! You donât know whether most who were forced into what Obama calls a âbetter planâ is a plan that worked for every American or businessman. Better is a very subjective term; a talking point!”
I never used the word “every;” I used the word “most.” And I do know it is working for most people, as the Gallup poll I cited earlier clearly shows. People enrolled through the ACA are more likely than those previously enrolled to say they are happy with their coverage.
“One size does not fit all, Chris.”
Which is exactly why automobiles don’t have minimum standards for safety!
“What happens to any citizen who doesnât participate?”
They have to pay a tax penalty. Next stop, gulags!
“How much more are the rich now required to pay”
You can find that information here:
http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-taxes/
“but it does represent government control of 1/6th of the economy!”
Not by any reasonable definition:
“Government takeover” conjures a European approach where the government owns the hospitals and the doctors are public employees. But the law Congress passed, parts of which have already gone into effect, relies largely on the free market:
⢠Employers will continue to provide health insurance to the majority of Americans through private insurance companies.
⢠Contrary to the claim, more people will get private health coverage. The law sets up “exchanges” where private insurers will compete to provide coverage to people who don’t have it.
⢠The government will not seize control of hospitals or nationalize doctors.
⢠The law does not include the public option, a government-run insurance plan that would have competed with private insurers.
⢠The law gives tax credits to people who have difficulty affording insurance, so they can buy their coverage from private providers on the exchange. But here too, the approach relies on a free market with regulations, not socialized medicine.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/dec/16/lie-year-government-takeover-health-care/
“Thatâs a bunch of crap! They can do whatever they need to do to âsave money.â”
No, they cannot. There are many restrictions in the law about what the board can and cannot do. It would help for you to read them.
“You are too young to know how government rewrites and rewrites and rewrites the laws in these programs.”
Then when/if the law is rewritten, maybe you can claim that the IPAB can do “whatever they need to,” including rationing care, to save money. But until that point, your claim is inaccurate. It doesn’t magically become true because it might be true in the future. Arguments based on time travel are not very convincing. The fact is that under current law, the ACA restricts the IPAB from rationing care or lowering benefits.
I am sure as soon as that changes, you will let your readers know.
Me: âMost low-to-middle income families and small businesses are receiving tax breaks and credits due to the ACA, not tax increases.â
“What naive bunk!”
It is a fact, Tina. You can’t change facts by yelling at them. I understand you don’t want it to be true that the ACA provides most families with tax breaks, because destroying Obama is more important to you than actually ensuring that the best policies for the American people get passed. But that doesn’t change the fact that it is true.
“And why should some jerk in DC decide where the line is between those who get and those who pay?”
So now you’re angry that middle class families are getting tax breaks while rich families are not? Can you at least try and keep your irrational arguments consistent with one another?
“What happened to being treated and respected as free people, equal under the law?”
Giving middle-and-lower income people tax breaks is not treating people unequally. It is a remedy for inequality. Even most Republicans understand that; that is why tax breaks for middle-and-lower income people are part of the Republican platform.
Now, if you would like to argue that rich people should get exactly the same tax breaks as middle-to-lower income people–in addition to the many exclusive tax breaks that rich people already have–then be my guest. But then don’t get mad when people get the impression that the Republican party is the party that primarily works to serve the wealthy.
“I canât go onâŚradical progressive talking points just do not reflect reality except for those on the receiving end.”
You have not provided a single fact to back up your own talking points in this discussion; you have simply ranted and used a lot of exclamation points in response to the facts I brought up that you wish were not true. You are the one making arguments with no connection to reality. You actually said that it is justified to say the ACA rations care today because it might ration care in the future. That makes no sense.
Chris more isn’t always better, and it sure as heck isn’t less expensive. You have a lot to learn.
The costs associated with care are exploding. A lot of it is hidden from freeloaders like you who work for the government, probably always will, and haven’t got a clue about what constitutes actual “costs” in the first place. Here’s an example from one insurer:
Aetna”
Here’s something from a Kaiser group:
Tina, I read the MarketWatch link. The majority of it was not critical toward Obamacare, rather it pinned the rise in healthcare costs mostly on greedy CEOs:
“Just look at the recent earnings releases of health-care insurers Cigna Corp. CI, +0.11% WellPoint Inc. US:WLP and Aetna Inc. AET, -0.18% You donât see them missing earnings expectations. They beat them handily â even under the expected strains of Obamacare.
Just look at the CEO pay.
Mark Bertolini, CEO at Aetna, got $30.7 million in total compensation last year. Cigna CEO David Cordani got. $17.76 million. Wellpoint CEO Joseph Swedish fell just a little short of $17 million, but he was only CEO for nine months of the year.
I donât mean to pick on just these guys, because capitalizing on the sick and dying has become just another accepted part of the American Way across the entire health-care sector. CVS Caremark CVS, +0.29% CEO Larry Merlo got $22.9 million in compensation last year. Lamberto Andreotti at Bristol-Myers Squibb BMY, -0.02% got $20.8 million. George Chapman at Health Care REIT HCN, +0.25% , which does real-estate deals in the health-care sector, got $18.9 million.
Executives in health care, you see, try to contain the cost of everything, except themselves.
And whatever cuts they make are not aimed at making health care affordable, but rather, improving the profit margins. Theyâve managed to stem the outrageous hikes weâve seen in health-care costs just enough to keep the system from completely breaking.”
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rising-health-care-costs-are-enough-to-make-you-sick-2014-05-29?page=2
Interesting that to make your case you linked to an argument that you would usually decry as “class warfare” if I had made it.
Chris you will never get an argument out of me about CEO pay in America. They are greedy plain and simple. Completely overcompensated for the value to the company and it was accomplished by a failed, corrupt BoD system that does quid pro quo deals all the time. Despite the decades of abuse little has been done to reform this system because there is too much power and money at the top and so these pirates continue their looting! Our watchdogs, are the week knee’d republican lawmakers and they virtually all have their hands out, looking for some crumbs from these shady robber barons. All they want is the donations so they can support their own petty political careers at our expense.
It’s shameful, absolutely shameful what is happening. Despite this blatant corruption in corporate America few have ever tried to fix it and fewer still even acknowledge this looting. Disorganized and confused stockholders don’t have the wherewithal to do much either. It’s an amazing crime of gigantic proportions that impacts the very credibility of Wall Street.
Tina: “The costs associated with care are exploding.”
Not relative to previous years. Healthcare costs have slowed down since Obamacare was passed and implemented. I am not crediting the law for that, but it simply hasn’t led to the effects Republicans predicted. Doomsday prophets continue to argue that a “premium shock” is right around the corner but it still hasn’t happened.
It is true that the U.S. still spends more on healthcare than any other Western democracy. Hm, let’s think: what is different about the U.S. healthcare system? What do those European countries have that we don’t? Gee, this is a tough one…
“A lot of it is hidden from freeloaders like you who work for the government, probably always will, and havenât got a clue about what constitutes actual âcostsâ in the first place.”
This is extremely unnecessary and offensive. I work very hard at my job and there is a lot withheld from my monthly paycheck. I am also still helping support my mother and my niece. Calling me a “freeloader” is simply inaccurate, and it’s exactly the kind of nasty language that solidifies a reputation for your party that I thought you wanted to get away from.
If I remember correctly, your crack is also hypocritical as the government is your business’ biggest customer.
“Nearly half of the people in this country pay zero taxes”
Not true. They may pay zero income taxes, but everyone pays sales tax, gas tax, etc. You’re also ignoring that many of those “people” you complain about paying no taxes and still getting subsidies are actually giant corporations:
Many of the most profitable U.S. corporations paid little or no federal income tax from 2008 to 2012, according to a five-year study issued on Tuesday by a left-leaning tax activist group.
Citizens for Tax Justice looked at 288 profitable Fortune 500 companies and said that 26 of them – including Boeing Co (BA.N), General Electric Co (GE.N) and Verizon Communications Inc (VZ.N) – paid no federal income tax in the five-year period.
You are always very concerned about the ways that the poor are apparently gaming the system, but when the wealthy do it they’re, what? Stimulating the economy? Creating jobs? What a laugh.
Me: “âGiving middle-and-lower income people tax breaks is not treating people unequally. It is a remedy for inequality.â
You: “NO! Did you attend school in Cuba?”
Good god, woman, I attended school in America in a time after the 1910s, as did you. The principle that the wealthy should pay a larger percentage in taxes and that the middle and lower classes should get tax breaks has been mainstream in this country since before you were born. It is as American as apple pie at this point. Ranting and raving against this principle makes you the wild-eyed, angry radical, not me.
But please, continue to argue that middle-to-lower income people should not get tax breaks while ignoring the many, many, many tax breaks that only the wealthy can take advantage of. I never did send you a thank you card after the 2012 election; maybe I’ll get another chance in 2016.
Ref post#22.
If you were to substitute the words;
CEO for POTUS,
BofD for Majority and minority leaders,
Corporate America for Congress,
stockholders for voters
and Wall street for DC in general,
Then you might have something that not only explains but permits the abuse taking place in Americas business world.
Lets not forget the likes of EPA and Unions, as well as Sharpton and Jackson?
It all starts at the top.
The principle that the wealth should pay more in taxes than the middle and lower classes in order to reduce inequality was supported by our Founding Fathers:
“In a letter to James Madison in 1785, for instance, Thomas Jefferson suggested that taxes could be used to reduce “the enormous inequality” between rich and poor. He wrote that one way of “silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise.”
Madison later spoke in favor of using laws to “reduce extreme wealth towards a state of mediocrity (meaning the middle) and raise extreme indigence towards a state of comfort.”
http://legacy.utsandiego.com/news/business/calbreath/20081026-9999-1b26dean.html
It is a truly American idea.
Chris you didn’t read, or didn’t comprehend, the information I posted about rising costs in health care, the reality in the numbers of newly insured, and the higher costs to anyone not given a subsidy. This tells me you are only willing to judge the ACA based on the information that paints it in a good light.
Your inability to evaluate the broader and long term effects represents the sad state of education in our country.
A problem bigger than high CEO pay is consolidation of hospitals, creating monopolies. The ACA has pushed hospitals and doctors to consolidate to share the added costs of compliance and taxes. Monopolies always lead to higher costs to consumers. Without competition there is no incentive to lower costs.
“It is a truly American idea.”
It’s an “idea” but not a founding principle.
And when this idea abused, as it has been over the past sixty to seventy years, it actual decimates the middle class and kills opportunity to move up the ladder or out of poverty.
The president just proposed another two taxes that will hit middle class savers (wealth builders).
One is a tax on the money they have saved to send their kids to college (See how government doesn’t keep its agreements! when the plan was created it was sold as a tax free way for families to save for college). These are the parents who make too much for their kids to qualify for pell grants but they aren’t rich. (The rich don’t need a plan they just cut a check!) So this is a redistribution plan that’s a big hit on the middle class!
The other is higher tax on inheritance. Middle class savers, people who work to make sure their kids have a better life, can’t pass their wealth to their kids so that they are being lifted to a new level of wealth.
progressive thinking whats every dime produced to be redistributed through government. That’s no way to create the conditions that build financial vibrancy and health in the middle and lower classes.
Policies should encourage personal saving, investing, and wealth building. This is the best way to create a bigger middle class with comfortable personal wealth. It’s the way to create opportunity for the poor to move into the middle class.
The rich already have enough money so that more progressive tax law, though annoying, cannot significantly lower their position in the upper class.
We are witnessing trickle up poverty Chris.
Redistribution is the road to greater income inequality! It’s so obvious. These conditions increase as progressive redistribution programs expand and grow and fewer people depend on themselves. That is exactly what has happened in America since the sixties Great society push for greater government involvement and control and intervention.
The left calls for “tax cuts for the rich” because they have created conditions in which only the very wealthy have money to tax. Nearly half of America pays zero income tax. That’s not because the rich are rich; it’s because progressive taxes kill opportunities to make money for the rest of America.
âTo compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.â â Thomas Jefferson
USA Founding Fathers:
The founders believed in liberty and the opportunity to build wealth, or at least comfortable security, for oneself. They did not envision a nation of serfs dependent on the generosity and whims of the ruling class.
As your view on Obamacare is narrow so too is your education about our founding principles. You have been trained and conditioned in the ideal of Marx: from each according to their means to each according to their need. This ideal more often than not produces discouraged people who live in a state of continuing poverty.
Harold there are businesses that operate under greedy CEO’s and there are Wall Street types that operate in underhanded ways to make money. The vast majority are just hard working individuals.
The same can be said of folks in any class. There are those in poor communities that would cheat their grandmothers to make a buck or who live off the misery of their fellow man.
None of this is the basis for the inequality we are experiencing in greater and greater numbers. Two of the biggest bricks that form the basis are the oppressive policies of government and inadequate education in our schools.
The answer is really quite simple. Tax (confiscate) more or spend less.
Yes, arguments about progressive tax laws have been made since our country’s inception. That does not make them right.
“The hardest thing in the world to understand is the Income Tax.” — Albert Einstein.
Suppose there was a flat tax rate with a cut-off for low income folks paying no taxes. Those who earn more naturally pay more. Those who earn below a certain income pay nothing.
Then all the legal and legislative arguments would be reduced to the flat rate and the cut-off income and the IRS would be reduced to 1% of its current size.
Tina: “Chris you didnât read, or didnât comprehend, the information I posted about rising costs in health care, the reality in the numbers of newly insured, and the higher costs to anyone not given a subsidy.”
Oh, I read and comprehended just fine, thank you very much.
Your first link is a lot of CYA from Aetna explaining how they totally pay too much in taxes and how they’ll be paying more under Obamacare. Yeah, a totally unbiased source there.
Your second link confirms that healthcare spending has been rising slowly, which is exactly what I said, and that spending will increase as the economy recovers. Duh.
I already pointed out that your third link puts most of the blame on greedy profiteers, not Obamacare.
Your fourth link says that healthcare costs have been rising since 2007, which again, duh.
None of them prove your assertions about Obamacare. That is not my fault.
“One is a tax on the money they have saved to send their kids to college (See how government doesnât keep its agreements! when the plan was created it was sold as a tax free way for families to save for college). These are the parents who make too much for their kids to qualify for pell grants but they arenât rich. (The rich donât need a plan they just cut a check!) So this is a redistribution plan thatâs a big hit on the middle class!
The other is higher tax on inheritance. Middle class savers, people who work to make sure their kids have a better life, canât pass their wealth to their kids so that they are being lifted to a new level of wealth.”
It is simply not true that these policies hit the middle class. I will provide information on these new taxes and their actual effect later.
In actuality, 529 plans primarily benefit the wealthiest 10% of Americans. The savings from eliminating the tax break in 529 plans would actually go toward the American Opportunity tax credit, which is a $2,500 write-off targeted at low- and middle-income families paying tuition bills.
From Time.com:
This proposalâwhich is already facing Republican opposition in Congressâis based on concerns about the fairness of the 529 tax breaks that have been widely discussed among education-related think tanks and experts of all political leanings for years.
In all, federal taxpayers spend more on educational tax breaks than they do on popular financial aid programs such as Pell grants, noted a 2013 report by the Reimagining Aid Design and Delivery (RADD) Consortium for Higher Education Tax Reform. Not only are all the education tax breaks confusing and hard to collect, âstudents from families with the least financial need receive the most tax-based aid,â the report noted.
In theory, 529 plans arenât just for the rich. Anybody can open one of these tax-protected colleges savings account for a child or for themselves. You can choose either a prepaid tuition plan, which lets you buy tuition credits ahead of time, or a college savings plan, which lets you set money aside for a future college student.
That tax break that the president wants to eliminate has been a key to 529 plansâ popularity. Since President George W. Bush signed the 529 tax exemption into law in 2001, families have opened nearly 12 million new 529 accounts and have socked away almost $250 billion for college.
And states have been marketing the savings programs. In 2012, the GAO found that 14 states offered matching grants to encourage low-income families to save. Some states even offered 529 brochures to new parents leaving the hospital.
Despite these efforts, very few low- or middle-income families have managed to save very much in 529s. In 2012, more than 97% of families had no special college savings account, according to a Government Accountability Office report. (The large number of accounts may be due to some families opening separate accounts for each child and parent.)
One reason for the low participation: Many still donât know about 529s. Of parents who say theyâre planning to send their kids to college, 49% donât even know what a 529 plan is, Sallie Mae found in its annual âHow America Pays For Collegeâ report.
Another factor: Low and middle-income families pay comparatively low taxes, so the tax break is not much of a lure to lock up money for one purpose. Families can take money out of 529s to spend on non-college expenses, but theyâll have to pay regular income taxes, plus an extra 10% penalty, on any earnings.
As a result, 529 investors tend to be wealthy. Families with 529s earned a median annual income of $142,400 and reported a median of $413,500 in financial assets, according to the GAO. About half of families with 529s (or similar Coverdell accounts) had an income above $150,000 in 2010.
And, in part because high earners typically owe higher taxes, the wealthy reaped large tax breaks from using 529s. In 2012, the GAO found that Americans who made less than $100,000 withdrew a median $7,491 from their 529s, saving just $561 on their taxes. But Americans who earned more than $150,000 withdrew a median $18,039, saving $3,132 in taxes.
In place of the tax break at withdrawal, Obama wants to expand the American Opportunity Tax Credit, which is currently phased out for families earning more than $180,000 a year.
The administration would like to expand the write-off to more students, such as those who attend college part-time. âItâs targeted in such a way that it will be most impactful to the students who need the assistance the most,â says Cecilia MuĂąoz, White House domestic policy director.
http://time.com/money/3676300/529-taxes-obama-state-of-the-union/
Claiming that a tax increase that really only affects the wealthiest actually hurts the “middle class” is a well-worn tactic on the right. Facts shatter the illusion.
“The other is higher tax on inheritance. Middle class savers, people who work to make sure their kids have a better life, canât pass their wealth to their kids so that they are being lifted to a new level of wealth.”
Middle class savers do NOT pay tax on inheritance. According to TurboTax.com:
“However, before an estate tax is due, the value of the assets must exceed certain thresholds that change each year, but generally itâs at least $1 million. Because of this threshold, only about 2 percent of taxpayers will ever encounter this tax.”
Nice try. The notion that the inheritance tax prevents the middle class from passing on their wealth is a complete lie.
Regarding: “In all, federal taxpayers spend more on educational tax breaks than they do on popular financial aid programs such as Pell grants”
A “tax break” is not a government expenditure, so taxpayers do not “spend more” The government cannot spend what it has not collected.
The comparison is bogus.
Second, those who qualify for Pell grants and other benefits already pay little or no tax, some get refunds without having paid a dime in taxes, which represents a huge “tax credit” to them.
“In 2012, the GAO found that Americans who made less than $100,000 withdrew a median $7,491 from their 529s, saving just $561 on their taxes. But Americans who earned more than $150,000 withdrew a median $18,039, saving $3,132 in taxes.”
Yeah, $561. in tax savings shouldn’t mean a thing to people that were told those investments were TAX FREE! It shouldn’t mean a thing to people that believed what the government promised and so worked hard, saved, made the investment, and planned for their child’s college. Those people DESERVE to have their savings ripped from their hands because the savings to them just isn’t that much.
Should we apply the same standard to food stamps? Oh lets cut the amount because it’s such a small subsidy.
Same applies to the wealthy, who pay most of the federal taxes already and therefore also pay for the subsidies (tax credits) our government allows the poor.
Chris there are a lot of small businesses in America that could be passed on to family members except that the inheritors must sell the business to pay the exorbitant tax levied against them in inheritance taxes. I talked with a woman once in Grace Juniors whose family owned a farm and the kids not only had to sell the farm, they each had to take out a personal loan to pay the tax. That’s just not right! Especially since everything the farm had produced through the years had already been taxed, probably more than once if all taxes are considered.
The thing that bothers me the most about arguments from the left, such as those made by Chris, is that they contain a huge sense of entitlement, a sense that the government is entitled to take and redistribute one citizens wealth to give to another citizen, and they can do it whether or not that citizen deserves the sudden cash windfall.
Peggy the radical lefties believe that if they think something is better that means its better for everyone.
Are they all narcissists?
Progressive liberals lack the understanding that someone did “build that.” Therefore, they are not entitled to keep what they worked for.
My oldest and dearest friend from high school is now a real estate broker in Montana. He says it is heartbreaking to see family members forced to sell of land their family has owned, ranched and farmed for generations all to pay the inheritance tax on the land, structures and all of the equipment. Everything the inheritance tax was based on had already been taxed in one form on another.
People who have nothing they’ve worked for can’t understand what it is to loose something whole generations of families spent their lives to obtain.
Tina: “Yeah, $561. in tax savings shouldnât mean a thing to people that were told those investments were TAX FREE! It shouldnât mean a thing to people that believed what the government promised and so worked hard, saved, made the investment, and planned for their childâs college.”
The government is not breaking any promise. The tax policy will not be retroactive. It only applies to future contributions.
“Those people DESERVE to have their savings ripped from their hands because the savings to them just isnât that much.”
Jesus, Tina, their savings isn’t being “ripped from their hands.” It just isn’t tax free anymore. You make it sound like this is going to cause people to lose everything, when really it just makes their accounts taxable. Spare the drama.
“Should we apply the same standard to food stamps? Oh lets cut the amount because itâs such a small subsidy.”
Obviously not. 529 plans primarily benefit the top 10% of Americans; food stamps benefit the poor.
“Same applies to the wealthy, who pay most of the federal taxes already and therefore also pay for the subsidies (tax credits) our government allows the poor.”
Your constant boo-hooing for the plight of the rich while snearing at the poor lost you the election in 2012. Why do you think continuing with this strategy will help you?
“Chris there are a lot of small businesses in America that could be passed on to family members except that the inheritors must sell the business to pay the exorbitant tax levied against them in inheritance taxes.”
“A lot” is not a unit of measurement, Tina. You cannot have a rational debate over the term “a lot.”
I already showed you that the inheritance tax only applies to 2% of taxpayers. I was unable to find specific information on the number of small businesses that pay inheritance taxes, but in 2013, only 20 small businesses and farms paid any estate tax. The rules for estate taxes and inheritance taxes are very similar, so it is highly unlikely that “a lot” of businesses are closing because the inheritors can’t pay what you call the “exorbitant tax,” which they only have to pay for values exceeding $2 million.
Your claim just doesn’t hold water.
You’ll have to excuse me if I don’t throw out all the numbers and facts that are out there about the inheritance tax just because you talked to a woman one time.
“Peggy the radical lefties believe that if they think something is better that means its better for everyone.”
I already addressed this strawman argument. I never said the ACA is better for everyone. It is better for the majority, as the Gallup poll proves. The American people have spoken; they like their plans under Obamacare.
Please stop misrepresenting my positions.
You’re not interested in an adult conversation. Every time one of your BS claims is proven false–such as you saying that inheritence tax hits the middle class–you just move on to more BS claims with no factual basis. I have brought facts and evidence to the table and you have nothing better to offer than unprovable anecdotes and half-baked philosophical arguments.
You’re not even on the right side of the Founding Fathers on this one. They strongly supported inheritance and estate taxes because they knew that concentrated, excessive wealth was a threat to our country. The Republican Party is dedicated to preserving this absurd concentration of wealth.
When you have facts to support any of the assertions you have made in this thread, let me know.
Re “Youâre not even on the right side of the Founding Fathers on this one. They strongly supported inheritance and estate taxes because they knew that concentrated, excessive wealth was a threat to our country. The Republican Party is dedicated to preserving this absurd concentration of wealth.”
When it comes to BS, Chris is the leader. Just compare the wealthy in Congress. Most are Democrats.
Chris: “It just isnât tax free anymore. You make it sound like this is going to cause people to lose everything, when really it just makes their accounts taxable. Spare the drama.”
Why is it that with respect to a higher education you are entitled to other peoples money but these folks shouldn’t be entitled even to KEEP their own money!!!!! Of course there should be drama, it’s an outrage!
Whether it’s retroactive or not it is a terrible idea. College is already an expensive burden for the middle class who do not qualify for assistance. What possible explanation can there be that would justify such taking?
“529 plans primarily benefit the top 10% of Americans”
You’ve asked everyone have you? My son isn’t wealthy by any means. His current salary puts him under the median average wage and he has one of these for his kids. I’m sure he’s not the only one in American trying to lower the cost of higher education for their kids.
It looks like another trasformational step toward government controlled higher education, “free” to all students. Another redistribution artists’ goal to create a communist/fascist state.
“Your constant boo-hooing for the plight of the rich while snearing at the poor lost you the election in 2012. Why do you think continuing with this strategy will help you?”
I’m counting on most Americans being smarter than you are.
I’m not boo hooing about the plight of the rich. I’m standing up for liberty and opportunity for all. it’s called America, you should learn about it sometime!
The scam artist in the WH has now been fully exposed. He doesn’t care about poor or middle class people. His policies have pandered to the poor, decimated the middle class, and made the upper classes more wealthy. And still you think this guy has the best ideas for America.
Obama may have won in 2012 but the American people LOST!
Democrats talk about the high cost of higher education. We see how Obama would “help” and surprise, surprise, his big idea is making it more expensive for those who can least afford it!
The rich don’t need a 529 plan, they simply write a check. Sometimes they even write another fat check for the elite schools where they send their kids. You know the kind Barack and Michelle attended and his girls will attend!
On the other hand Republicans and reasonable Democrats had different ideas about helping the middle classes on education:
They make policy to help the middle class with the high cost of higher education, they encourage savings and employer participation.
Obama and his progressive pals just want control over the peoples money and will take it anywhere they can find it.
“âA lotâ is not a unit of measurement, Tina. You cannot have a rational debate over the term âa lot.â
You do it all the time, Chris, when you claim a lot of poor people need handouts when in fact “a lot” of them really don’t. They could work and improve themselves they just choose to stay dependent. You say that every time you argue in favor of new programs or program increases and against any cut backs or tax cuts.
“I already showed you that the inheritance tax only applies to 2% of taxpayers.”
Peggy is right. Its just numbers to you on the left; its not peoples lives and investments and savings!
LA Times:
That farm is family property! You have no respect for their property rights or for the years the family worked to sustain their living while paying all kinds of TAXES year after year.
This stupid tax policy leads to big conglomerates and monopolies! That would be the rich. That would be consolidating power in the hands of the few. That further enables the Wall Street rich you guys claim to hate so much. How stupid is that!
“but in 2013, only 20 small businesses and farms paid any estate tax.”
I wonder how many went into foreclosure thanks to other leftist programs and shenanigans of the federal government, see my latest post, “Whistle Blower Charges Political Cover Up in Finanacial Crisis Inquiry Commission”
” I never said the ACA is better for everyone. It is better for the majority, as the Gallup poll proves. The American people have spoken; they like their plans under Obamacare.”
A January 19, 2015 Rassmussen poll paints an entirely different picture:
NYT asks if Obamacare is “destroying” the Democrat Party.” Senator Schumer:
If Obamacare is helping more Americans than it is hurting perhaps its because of the failure of Democrats and Obama to adequately address the economy placing more Americans in the poor, needy, and qualifying for subsidy category. That’s an overall step down for many of them in case it hadn’t occurred to you.
Better off is in the eyes of the beholder.
Not having a job, losing a house and savings, needing food stamps and being forced onto medical or medicaid is not “better” for those that have lost so much under radical Democrat policies. Higher deductibles and co-pays are another blow…even for some who are among those who are no longer in the middle class but have joined the nations poor:
The majority you talk about is based on the 85% that receive subsidies and will not see the rising costs. They are also not representative of the millions of small practice docs that are being burdened by Obamacare.
Once again your focus is narrow and your facts limited to that narrow focus.
By now, were you not so incredibly wedded to big government solutions, you’d feel shame at the radicals of the party you favor that have decimated the middle class, disrupted and complicated insurance and healthcare, added all kinds of costs in the form of bureaucracies that will add to the debt, and plunged more people into poverty while making the wealth wealthier!
Instead you come up with a poll and narrowly quote from it. Anyone can do that.
Oct 2013 gallup poll: “A new Gallup poll finds that 69 percent of Americans rate their personal coverage as excellent or good, but only 32 percent say the same about health care coverage in the country.”
November 2014 Gallup Poll: “For the third consecutive year, a majority of Americans said it is not the role of the federal government to ensure all Americans have healthcare coverage, according to a new Gallup poll. Fifty-two percent of Americans said they do not believe the government has a responsibility to provide everyone with healthcare coverage, while 45 percent say it is.”
Jan 2015 Gallup Poll: “Confirming the 2014 election zeitgeist, a new Gallup poll finds that Americans are fed up with ever-encroaching, corrupt and incompetent government, as represented by ObamaCare and other federal policies.”
March 2014 Gallup Poll: “A new Gallup poll finds that over twice as many Americans say Obamacare has hurt them or their families as those who say it has helped them. Nearly one in four people (23%) said Obamacare has already hurt them or their families, versus just one in ten (10%) who said it has helped them or their families. âThe 23% who feel the law has hurt them is the highest percentage for the question since Gallup began asking Americans about it in 2012, and is up from 19% in previous polling,â reports Gallup. Gallup also surveyed whether Americans believe Obamacare will help them and their families over the long run. A full 40% of Americans say Obamacare will make their familiesâ healthcare situation âworse,â versus just 21% who said it will make it âbetter.â
So much for polls as “proof”.
Regarding Founding Fathers and taxes:
“This is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.” – Thomas Jefferson
“The power to tax is the power to destroy.” John Marshall
“If taxes are laid upon us without our having a legal representation where they are laid, we are reduced from the character of free subjects to the state of tributary slaves.” – Samuel jackson
“What at first was plunder assumed the softer name of revenue.”- Thomas Paine
“If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute.” – Thomas Paine
Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamities is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer! Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built on the ruins of the bowers of paradise. For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform, and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver; but that not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property to furnish means for the protection of the rest; and this he is induced to do by the same prudence which in every other case advises him out of two evils to choose the least. Wherefore, security being the true design and end of government, it unanswerably follows that whatever form thereof appears most likely to ensure it to us, with the least expense and greatest benefit, is preferable to all others. â Thomas Paine (Common Sense, 1776)
The Founders had a natural fear and distrust of elite ruling classes and concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the few. But to make the leap that they would support inheritance and estate taxes, especially given the current extent that the government now taxes and is burdened with debt through mismanagement, is at best questionable. Add in the general opinion that power should reside with the people and the states and the federal governments purpose was defense of the various states, well, the very idea is ludicrous! Had they also been able to witness the expansion of the middle class and the increase in the standard of living, even for the poor, the numbers of Americans that have earned great wealth and the size of our government I doubt they’d find an inheritance tax all that necessary…or wise! If anything they would be appalled at the largess of the federal government.
You can’t believe in liberty or property rights and at the same time support the government taking what citizens have built for their own and their families security. Individual liberty and power is the heart of the American experience.
One last quote: An admirer of John Locke, George Washington understood the concept of consent of the governed, writing: ‘The Parliament of Great Britain hath no more Right to put their hands into my Pocket without my consent, than I have to put my hands into yours, for money.’â
The radical progressives of the Democrat party are bound and determined to fundamentally transform America into just such a state, a state in which it is accepted that government can just reach in and take from our pockets at will.
If our government were an individual seeking a loan it would be turned down in a heartbeat. It is over $18 Trillion in debt, it’s deficit spending never seems to stop (currently $478.7 Billion), it poorly manages programs, and both the programs and bureaucracy are rife with waste, fraud and abuse.
In short it is not worthy!
Ever bigger government, wealth transfers, and central power over healthcare, education, industry, and wealth all work to put power and control into the hands of the elite political few.
The best way to ensure against that is to allow individuals and families to accumulate wealth. When we tax savings, wealth, investment, property, and even education we blunt the ability for the middle class to become prosperous and we blunt the opportunity for the middle class to grow as people move out of poverty.
To a: “Why is it that with respect to a higher education you are entitled to other peoples money but these folks shouldnât be entitled even to KEEP their own money!!!!!”
I’m sorry, I’m not going to waste my time explaining the basic precepts of progressive taxation to you. This argument was settled nearly a century ago; almost everyone believes that there should be SOME kind of social safety net, including you, so your argument is disingenuous. You don’t actually believe that our country shouldn’t take money from the rich to give to the poor; we disagree on the extent to which that should happen, but unless you are calling for the complete elimination of all welfare programs–which you are not–then your question is irrelevant to this conversation.
“College is already an expensive burden for the middle class who do not qualify for assistance. What possible explanation can there be that would justify such taking?”
You’re not paying attention at all. As I already showed you, the revenue from taxing 529 plans goes toward the American Opportunity tax credit, which actually DOES help the middle class afford college.
Ending the tax break in 529 plans–a tax break that didn’t even exist until the Bush administration, and which primarily benefits the wealthy–in order to expand a tax credit that primarily benefits the middle class, is of course within the proper realm of government power.
Me: â529 plans primarily benefit the top 10% of Americansâ
Tina: “Youâve asked everyone have you?”
I am not going to answer idiotic non-sequiturs. You know what the word “primarily” means; it gains you nothing to pretend not to.
“My son isnât wealthy by any means. His current salary puts him under the median average wage and he has one of these for his kids. Iâm sure heâs not the only one in American trying to lower the cost of higher education for their kids.”
If that is true than he is eligible for the American Opportunity tax credit which will be expanded with the savings from cutting the exemption on 529s. If he applies for the former then your son is likely to benefit or see no change in his savings under this policy.
âYour constant boo-hooing for the plight of the rich while snearing at the poor lost you the election in 2012. Why do you think continuing with this strategy will help you?â
“We see how Obama would âhelpâ and surprise, surprise, his big idea is making it more expensive for those who can least afford it!”
This is simply not true. Those who can least afford it do not tend to have 529 plans, and are much more likely to benefit from the American Opportunity tax credit, which actually does go primarily to the middle class.
“The rich donât need a 529 plan, they simply write a check.”
Then why are 529s primarily used by the top 10% of earners? Are the wealthy people using them just stupid?
“You do it all the time, Chris, when you claim a lot of poor people need handouts when in fact âa lotâ of them really donât. They could work and improve themselves they just choose to stay dependent.”
Your disdain for the poor is once again noted.
“Peggy is right. Its just numbers to you on the left”
If by that you mean I believe we should find out what works for the vast majority of people and do it, then we should, as long as it doesn’t violate anyone’s rights. And no, I’m not counting the non-existent right of rich people to avoid being taxed in that equation.
It’s also funny that at other times you accuse liberals of arguing from emotion rather than reason. Which is it? It seems pretty clear that in this debate you are the one making naked emotional appeals in response to facts you don’t like.
“The Founders had a natural fear and distrust of elite ruling classes and concentrations of wealth and power in the hands of the few. But to make the leap that they would support inheritance and estate taxes, especially given the current extent that the government now taxes and is burdened with debt through mismanagement, is at best questionable.”
No, it isn’t. It is a fact that the Founders supported inheritance and estate taxes. They even implemented them. I’ve shown you this before; you can Google it yourself this time.
My grandkids too have 529 plans their parents, grandparents and God parents have contributed to since they were born. Every dime that went into them came from after taxed dollars with the understand they could use that money for their education without being taxed AGAIN.
Like you basically said the middle class is getting screw** again for believing the liar that occupies our oval office. It’s all about redistribution of people wealth and possessions. Since the government has no money of its own it must forcibly take from those that have to give to those who have less.
The meager amount of taxes the government will get from the 529 plans won’t be a drop in the bucket to pay for the “free” community college he’s proposing. It is just another way to take from the middle class now after saying only the rich will pay more taxes. Wasn’t it Margaret Thatcher who said who do you take from when you run out of other people’s money? The gov’t is running out of other people’s money, now what are they going to do? Oh that’s right we’re selling our debt and our liberties to China and other countries. World wide wealth redistribution express train is boarding now.
Peggy a response quite worthy and sufficient to the one who got government help for his education and loves taxing others for the privilege.
It’s long passed time to revive JFK, “Ask not what your country can do for you, but ask, what you can do for your country.”
Too many people have been convinced they deserve handouts and don’t have to be responsible for their own future prospects. So many who feed them this drivel are themselves the recipients of other peoples money. It certainly isn’t gratitude that feeds covetousness…maybe guilt! People appreciate more what they have earned!
Tina, If JFK was on the ballot today I’d probably vote for him over some of the passed republicans who have been on the ballot, like McCain.
The progressive movement has completely taken over the democrats and is working on the republican party now. Their goal of big government will bankrupt this country and must be stopped.
The 2012 election results was voters saying enough out of control spending. Democrats ran from using ObamaCare to get reelected and they still lost. Voters were smarter than the dems gave them credit for.
Now, for 2016 we need a candidate the conservative voters want and not one the GOP with big money supports or one the dems push as the candidate they pick for us. It’s so obvious hearing dem pundits pushing Jeb Bush, Chris Christy and Mit Romney.
I liked what Scott Walker had to say at the Iowa Summit conference this weekend.
“Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker appeared to be the early winner of high-profile conservative summit in the early voting state of Iowa this weekend.
Walker, who has indicated heâs seriously considering a 2016 presidential bid, delivered the line of the weekend, telling an enthusiastic crowd at the Iowa Freedom Summit that the GOP needed to âgo big and go boldâ
âI think that sends a powerful message to Republicans in Washington and around the country â if youâre not afraid to go big and go bold, you can actually get results,â he said.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/scott-walker-wows-iowa-conservatives-weekend-convention-article-1.2091150
Peggy. as I have shown, the elimination of the tax break on 529s does NOT “screw the middle class.” The money goes toward the American Opportunity tax credit which does a lot more to help the middle class than 529 plans. Your grandchildren should be eligible for this tax break and will likely benefit more than they did from 529s. And whatever savings have built up in those plans so far can be used in full, the new policy–if passed–will only apply to future contributions.