As Trump and Sanders rise, the two major parties fall

Posted by Jack, with a PS by Jack

Here’s a great opinion piece I bet you’ll enjoy:

“Does the 2016 presidential campaign seem chaotic? For good or ill, that’s because it is. The rise of Donald Trump on the right and Bernie Sanders on the left is proof that the country’s two major political parties have lost their grip on the nominating process. They can still provide two guaranteed spots on the ballot, for a self-identified “Republican” and a self-identified “Democrat.” But that’s pretty much all.” Click here for the full story.

My personal take is. . . this is another one time phenomena, much like the rush to elect a black president, even one with a sketchy background and no leadership abilities. Unfortunately, this social experiment came at a tremendous cost to America. Welfare rolls are up, average wages down and the country is broke and more racially divided than at anytime in my long recollection.

People, be they democrats or republicans are fed up with the status quo. But, Obama didn’t do it all by himself, this has been years in the making. Obama has just brought it all to an unbearable conclusion with the help from crazies like Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and dare I say it… even republican John Beohner.

Voters are sick of the incompetence foisted upon them by these Beltway bandits and they are desperate to rally behind someone who is a Washington outsider, anyone…just be outside the fold.

The voters want to break the old Washington politician mold and restore fresh faces to Washington. They want honest people with vision, courage and reverence for the Constitution to return to government! They especially want to see common sense and integrity return to the White House. But, we won’t get there by electing either Trump or Sanders. Neither has the temperament or experience to lead this nation. What they are is great entertainment. And for now the voters are happy with the show, but that’s all it is.

I have a hunch went we draw closer to electing time folks are going to be looking for more substance and someone with a real plan, not just inflammatory put-downs of the opposition. Those put-downs are great to hear, don’t get me wrong. I like hearing Donald and Bernie ripping on those who have it coming, but they won’t power up the White House.

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33 Responses to As Trump and Sanders rise, the two major parties fall

  1. bob says:

    Hah! Check this out.

    California Senate passes resolution to ‘dump Trump’

    http://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-alert/article35021343.html

    If anyone outside of Colliefornia still pays attention to what the Demonrat Colliefornian politicians are doing this ought to be good for a several point bump up in the polls for Trump.

  2. bob says:

    And what’s amazing only 1 Republican voted against the Trump measure. All the rest abstained.

    It just shows what clowns the RepublowClowns in the Colliefornia RepublowClown party are.

    DemoNRat or RepblowClown, they are just different wings of the same corrupt bird or prey.

  3. bob says:

    “We have chosen,” Senate Republican Leader Jean Fuller said, “to have a moment of silence to reflect on the good things.”

    What that has to do with dumping Trump is beyond me. That RepuBlowClown must be on drugs.

    • Post Scripts says:

      We have a situation in CA where the GOP can’t do a thing without the permission of the democrats. Why anyone would elect, much less be run, a republican under these conditions is beyond reason. The smartest thing for the GOP to do now would be a boycott. Let democrats sink the ship, refuse to have anything to do with them. Let them take all the blame and let the voters suffer. Let the state go bankrupt. Run this place into the ground and when its over let the republicans come back in and start rebuilding like it should be. If they STILL don’t fix the state, then I guess all that’s left is for the angry lynch-mob of fed-up citizens armed with pitchforks and torches to descend on the state capital and do what angry mobs do best, just like our founders would have done.

      • bob says:

        Our only hope here is the state of Jefferson. But our corrupt county supervisors won’t even let our voices be heard on the matter.

        So now things will get much worse for us. Do you know how much gas is in St. Louis? 1.81 a gallon. When oil gets back to $80 a barrel we will be paying over $5 a gallon here. Can you imagine what that will do to what’s left of the economy here.

      • Peggy says:

        The only role the republicans have in the Calif. legislation are enablers to the drunk on spending democrats. They should just pack it up, go home and let the dems hit bottom all by themselves when the state is bankrupt and all of the businesses and taxpayers have moved out.

  4. Tina says:

    Jack I agree with you except for one thing. Bernie Sanders is no “outsider,” in Washington. He mirrors the extreme radical power in control of the Democrat Party. He caucuses with the Democrat Party. His choice to participate as an Independent, therefore, means nothing. Here’s some background, which includes being college educated in Saul Alinsky land (Chicago), from Wikipedia:

    Sanders is the longest-serving independent in U.S. congressional history. A self-described democratic socialist,[6][7][8][9] he favors policies similar to those of social democratic parties in Europe, particularly those instituted by the Nordic countries.[10][11][12] He caucuses with the Democratic Party and has been the ranking minority member on the Senate Budget Committee since January 2015.[13]

    Born in Brooklyn, New York, Sanders is a graduate of the University of Chicago. While a student, he was a member of the Young People’s Socialist League and active in the Civil Rights Movement as a protest organizer for the Congress of Racial Equality and the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.[14][15] In 1963, he participated in the March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom.

    Opening statement on the webpage, Bernie Sanders On the Issues:

    The American people must make a fundamental decision. Do we continue the 40-year decline of our middle class and the growing gap between the very rich and everyone else, or do we fight for a progressive economic agenda that creates jobs, raises wages, protects the environment and provides health care for all? Are we prepared to take on the enormous economic and political power of the billionaire class, or do we continue to slide into economic and political oligarchy? These are the most important questions of our time, and how we answer them will determine the future of our country.

    The man is oblivious to the fact that progressive policy over seventy years has resulted in the “decline of our middle class.” He’s oblivious to the fact that the gap between rich and poor has grown radically wider under the extreme socialist (progressive) policies that have dragged this country into near ruin over the last seven years. He’s oblivious to the fact that government “oligarchy” is the real threat to all of us.

    Oligarchy: a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution

    Corporations can influence politicians but it’s the politicians that have the power to expand government control and make the rules we must follow. The people that run corporations are citizens. They are aware of the power and control of big government politicians. They seek influence for the same reason any citizen would…freedom from the unreasonable regulations and taxation.

    Sanders seeks power in the hands of the few at the top…government control of the entire country.

    It is good to see the two parties coming apart at the seams. Couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch. Let’s hope the long march of progressive policies is destroyed right along with them.

    We do seem to have some real patriots, men and women with integrity and a firm grounding rising within the Republican Party. In my mind they have made strides in the direction we seek. I hope they survive to lead the “reorganization,” should it happen. It will be interesting to see who wins, and who loses, in November next year.

    • Chris says:

      Tina: “He’s oblivious to the fact that the gap between rich and poor has grown radically wider under the extreme socialist (progressive) policies that have dragged this country into near ruin over the last seven years.”

      Why, then, do actual socialist countries have smaller gaps between rich and poor, and higher economic mobility and freedom? You have never been able to explain this. You and Jack just touted a study showing socialist countries actually have more freedom then the U.S., and still you think the problem is socialism. It doesn’t make any sense.

      • Tina says:

        They don’t Chris.

        The European nations aren’t strong economically. They don’t have the resources to defend themselves. Their people are dependent and have grown used to a life of leisure, wanting/demanding more all the time. Their economies have depended on the strength of America since before WWII. Sooner or later they run out of other people’s money and that’s when they frantically start moving to more conservative policy…if they can. When they can’t they turn into Greece.

        When the government doles out money to make everyone financially equal (closes the gap artificially) you only have the illusion of prosperity. Since it can never be sustained in the long run, because government does not create wealth (it takes it and spends it, mostly on services) there is no real growth in the private sector. The private sector works to feed the needs of the government. Society becomes a leech and the government a task master.

        People who are dependent are not free; they are like children.

        “You and Jack just touted a study showing socialist countries actually have more freedom then the U.S., and still you think the problem is socialism.”

        Those countries are in the toilet and we are moving down the pipe toward the sewer and you think I have something to explain? This is a sliding scale Chris. America, the once truly free nation, has been sliding down that scale for some time…socialist nations have been near the sewer at least since WWII, longer for some.

        “It doesn’t make any sense.”

        It makes perfect sense.

        • Chris says:

          “They don’t Chris.”

          They don’t what? Socialist countries don’t have a smaller gap between the rich and the poor or higher economic mobility? Wow. Do you have anything to contradict the overwhelming evidence that they do in fact have these advantages over the U.S? You’ve been shown this evidence countless times so I find it very hard to believe that you’re unaware of this.

          And if those countries are “in the toilet,” why did you and Jack just sing their praises when that study showed that they are more economically free than the U.S.?

          • Tina says:

            The study we sighted is a measure of freedom on a scale. I explained that to you and then gave you an illustration I thought was pretty clear.

            Socialist nations would never reach the top of that scale. America used to be at the top of the scale and now, due to socialist policies adopted over many years and punishing regulations and tax policy, we have dropped below those socialist nations on the scale. Please don’t pretend you don’t understand this!

            Socialist nations have a poorer record in terms of which system creates greater freedom and prosperity and in terms of where America once was o the scale. As America abandons limited government with power vested in the people in favor of socialist policies and central planning she drops on the scale. Now she has dropped below some socialist nations.

            Sweden, as an an example has shifted economic and spending policies toward the conservative side in recent years:

            Despite its well-established welfare state and large government budget, Sweden has made marginal changes to improve its economic freedom and competitiveness. Over the past five years, economic freedom in Sweden has advanced by 0.8 point with gains in five of the 10 economic freedoms, including fiscal freedom, the management of government spending, monetary freedom, trade freedom, and investment freedom.

            Sweden’s high-performing economy has built its success on openness to global trade and investment. Reforms over the past two decades reduced the role of government and introduced market mechanisms that set the foundations for today’s competitive economy. Sweden’s business freedom score is one of the highest in the world. Fiscal responsibility remains central to the new government’s policy proposals, but plans to reverse some of the previous government’s tax cuts in order to fund higher spending could hurt growth.

            We just adopted another huge social program. We have kept business and investment taxes and regulations high compared to other nations. We have sat on the sidelines in terms of trade agreements until recently. We have tried to grow the economy through government spending, a complete failure. We have kept inflation down artificially through QE. Of course we have dropped on the scale!

            Hong Kong holds the number one spot on the scale:

            Hong Kong’s economic freedom score is 89.6. Its overall score has declined by 0.5 point since last year, reflecting a higher level of perceived corruption that outweighs small improvements in business freedom, labor freedom, and fiscal freedom. Hong Kong continues to be the top-rated economy in the Index.

            Hong Kong, a global free port and financial hub, continues to thrive on the free flow of goods, services, and capital. As the economic and financial gateway to China, and with an efficient regulatory framework, low and simple taxation, and sophisticated capital markets, the territory continues to offer the most convenient platform for international companies doing business on the mainland. An impressive level of resilience has enabled it to navigate global economic swings and domestic shocks.</blockquote.

            Still, Hong Kong has also dropped on the scale from just above 90.0 in 2014 to 89.6 in 2015…and there's trouble on the horizon for Hong Kong. Since it became a part of China in 1997 it no longer can be sure it will remain free of Chinese (big government, central planning) dictates.

            Get it now?

          • Chris says:

            Fine, so let’s be more like Sweden. I’d gladly get rid of a ton of regulations to have their minimum wage, their paid leave, and their universal healthcare. Fair trade?

          • Post Scripts says:

            Chris, Sweden is a small country and so they have local influence on their healthcare. This is needed for cost control and keeping corruption at a minimum. We don’t seem to be able to do that, overhead here is horrible.

            But, lets say we could do it as well as Sweden, would you be okay with taxes taking up about 70% or more of your income? Income tax works out to be about 63.74% on average and then there is the VAT at 25%, then there is the gasoline taxes, property taxes, car tax, etc. Whole lotta taxes goin on in Sweden…you like that?

  5. Jim says:

    Both Sanders and Trump are perceived as “populist” that is that they take the side of ordinary people. While Sanders has been in Congress for years, he still seems like a party outsider.

    This shift in voting attitudes has been going on for a while. People also perceived Obama as being an outsider, which is why he beat the more establishment types like Romney and McCain.

  6. Pie Guevara says:

    In the national election, will I really be forced to vote for Trump? That choice is far from interesting, it is excruciating.

  7. Pie Guevara says:

    Here is some opinion from the left you also may enjoy —

    “Rupert Murdoch is a raging asshole, but he is also a very much on-the-record climate change denier. A climate change denier with now even more power and influence over science grants in the United States. ”

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/tim-graham/2015/09/12/liberal-pundits-freak-climate-denier-murdochs-national-geographic

    • Tina says:

      Great news.

      It’s kinda fun to watch the left freak.

      It’s kinda sad that they freak over unreasonable caricatures they create to represent folks on the right.

      It would be great if they would drop the creativity and just get us once in awhile…not holding my breath on that one.

  8. Dewey says:

    Tina

    get off the Alinsky stuff, it is a bunch of bull.

    Trump is all theater. His ego may run though. Much of trumps lines are the same old trump. But he has shown republicans are tired of the same old game.

    Bernie is far from what you describe. i suggest you are reading and repeating. Sanders has a long long history of the same platform.

    Bernie has been talkng to the people once a week on brunch with bernie for over a decade. he has walked the walk.

    This election will be on the issues not the Media hype. We can thank both for that.

    Trump runs the media, Sanders is ignored by the media.

    old banned doc on Trump here, is fun and well done.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=220&v=5UO3nn7awUk

    Fun to see the young Donald, also good to see he is the same man he has always been

    Same with Sanders, he is the same man he has always been.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arsbO7ay0I0

    I will be on the other side than you Tina, but how about we talk issues not people.

    • Tina says:

      Don’t blow a gasket Dewey, we’re just talkin’ here!

      Sanders is and always has been a declared socialist…of course he has not changed. Government control is his bag.

      And don’t try to order me around. I will expose the influence of Alinsky any time I choose. Only ignorance could keep you from getting he was no friend of America but WAS a good friend of the radicals of the sixties now in power in the Democrat Party. Bernie may not be in the party or use his tactics (We will see how it goes) but he is aligned with the Marx and the Trotskyites. Socialism does not work and has undermined our republican system of government and the economic policies that made America prosperous! America doesn’t need more central planning…we need prosperity and jobs. Sanders won’t get us there, he thinks government spending is the answer. I looked at and posted a link to his personal webpage which should have informed you that I am not, “reading and repeating.,” as you suggest.

      I’ve never declared a favorite candidate. Therefore what you think of Trump doesn’t really interest me; you might as well be talking to yourself.

      You ask that we talk issues, which I am more than happy to do, and yet you talked of nothing but personality and image. Practice what you preach.

  9. Peggy says:

    I’m not sold on Trump for three reasons. 1) He reminds me too much of Obama with his it’s all about me arrogance. 2) He met with both the Clintons and Jeb Bush before he announced his candidacy. Is he in as a spoiler to take out all of the competition for Jeb? 3) He’s not a conservative. His plans aren’t about freedom, liberty and our Constitution. Afraid he’d be worse than Obama with EO and going around Congress.

  10. Pie Guevara says:

    Dewey IS Trump, he is just jealous because his ability to acquire wealth sucks by comparison. Sometimes I wonder what planet Dewey lives on.

  11. Pie Guevara says:

    I was recently reminded of who I once was. I was reminded of the ideals to which I once held fast. I hope to hold them all fast again. They are straight forward and exemplary of what is the best in all of us, despite the left’s intrusion and corruption of them and the BSA’s capitulation to left wing perversion.

    The Boy Scout Oath —
    On my honor, I will do my best
    To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
    To help other people at all times;
    To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

    A Scout is:
    Trustworthy,
    Loyal,
    Helpful,
    Friendly,
    Courteous,
    Kind,
    Obedient,
    Cheerful,
    Thrifty,
    Brave,
    Clean,
    and Reverent.

    Boy Scout Motto — Be Prepared!
    Boy Scout Slogan — Do a Good Turn Daily!

    The Outdoor Code
    I will do my best to –
    Be clean in my outdoor manners
    Be careful with fire
    Be considerate in the outdoors, and
    Be conservation minded.

    Once an Eagle Scout, always an Eagle Scout. I just needed a reminder.

    • Chris says:

      Those are all excellent principles. I hope you don’t mind me asking, Pie: what do you mean by the “BSA’s capitulation to left-wing perversion?” Are you referring to the BSA’s newfound acceptance of gay members and leaders? I don’t see any reason why a gay boy scout couldn’t live up to all of the principles you listed above.

      • Post Scripts says:

        Chris, kicking the Christian religion and ethos out of the Boy Scouts is probably part of the leftwing perversion. I was a Boy Scout, but other than a few Godly oriented statements said during a special ceremony we really didn’t have any religion involved. Our meetings were all about projects and just doing fun boy stuff.

        • Chris says:

          Jack: “Chris, kicking the Christian religion and ethos out of the Boy Scouts is probably part of the leftwing perversion.”

          How have the Boy Scouts “kicked the Christian religion and ethos” out of their organization? By allowing gays? Plenty of actual churches do that–are they also guilty of kicking out the Christian religion and ethos?

          Opposition to homosexuality is hardly a key component of Christianity–the issue is mentioned a total of twice in the New Testament, both by Paul, who also condemned women speaking in church or holding any position of authority over men. Almost no church takes those proscriptions seriously any more, so why are the condemnations of homosexuality still seen by some as crucial to their religion?

          “I was a Boy Scout, but other than a few Godly oriented statements said during a special ceremony we really didn’t have any religion involved. Our meetings were all about projects and just doing fun boy stuff.”

          Doesn’t this contradict your first sentence?

        • Chris says:

          Pie: “Evidently Chris thinks that the homosexual abuse of young boys is a good thing.”

          I asked you a perfectly reasonable question in as civil a manner as possible, and you respond by spreading more disgusting libel against me after Jack and Tina specifically warned you about that? What the hell is the matter with you?

          Furthermore, there is no evidence whatsoever that homosexuals abuse children in numbers higher than heterosexuals, so allowing gay male scout leaders is no more dangerous than allowing straight male scout leaders. Your comment is ignorant and bigoted in addition to being libelous. You’re not just libeling me, you’re libeling the entire gay community.

          In conclusion, you’re a horrible human being, and I’ll never try and be civil with you again.

    • Chris says:

      I mean, my God–you just said you were going to try and hold fast to higher ideas again, and yet you chose to violate so many of them with your disgusting, dishonest comment. Trustworthy? Nope, because you were willfully dishonest about me, not to mention about gay scout leaders. Friendly? Kind? 0 for 3. Brave? No, spreading lies about minority groups which already face discrimination is actually fairly cowardly. Your premise that gay scout leaders will molest little boys is no better than the practice of blood libel.

      You will never be able to achieve the ideals you listed above–you’re incapable of it. I know gay men who meet all of the principles of the Boy Scout code. All of them individually are ten times the man you are.

  12. Peggy says:

    Off topic.

    Another example of the insane world we now live in. 100,000 trees to replace those that have burned in recent fires will die because of a required “carbon emission test. Didn’t we ALL learn in junior high school trees produce oxygen?

    Forester: 100,000 trees might die due to policy change:

    http://m.krcrtv.com/forester-100000-trees-might-die-due-to-policy-change/35214252

  13. Tina says:

    Chris: ” I’d gladly get rid of a ton of regulations to have their minimum wage, their paid leave, and their universal healthcare. Fair trade?”

    Let me see. You’re willing to untie the hands of the job creators a bit but you still want the government to be in control and you still want to encourage dependence on government. (What have we done to our kids!!!)

    A minimum wage, no matter how it is dictated, assures those with low skills that they don’t have to work very hard or learn new skills. They can survive while getting someone else to pay a sizable portion of their expenses…among them in Sweden healthcare and extra paid leave.

    According to Wikipedia Sweden has no minimum wage. The law does provide for “the right of workers to form and join independent unions to bargain wages collectively, and it prohibits antiunion discrimination.”

    Sweden’s wage regulations still reflect a central planning mindset. They encourage individual progress through dependency (on the union) and coercion/extortion rather than improved skills and gained experience for pay raises.

    Let’s look at those generous benefits flowing from central planning:

    Parental leave in Sweden is very generous but very costly to employers and the state:

    How are parental benefits funded in Sweden?

    “Two-thirds of parental benefits are funded through an employers’ fee and one-third is funded by taxes.

    “Employers in Sweden pay a fee to the government that corresponds to 25% of each employees’ salary. The fee covers costs for pension, unemployment, sick leave, widow survival, work injury, and parental benefits. Out of these individual fees, parental benefits account for 2.2% of the 25% fee employers pay to the government.”

    How can Sweden afford to pay parents so generously?

    “As long as the market is healthy and unemployment is low then we will be able to afford this. We have a high level of transfers in Sweden with high taxes and high insurances and benefits. (emphasis mine)

    David Hogberg, PH.D., comments on Sweden’s universal healthcare system:

    Sweden is a country of about 9.1 million people on the Scandinavian Peninsula of Northern Europe. Geographically, it is slightly larger than California. It is by any measure a first world country, with a labor force working primarily in industry or the service area, a GDP per capita of about $31,600 and an unemployment rate of 5.6 percent.

    For much of the 20th century, Sweden had a single-payer system of health care in which the government paid almost all health care costs. Like other nations with a single-payer system, Sweden has had to deal with the problem of ever-growing health care expenses causing a strain on government budgets. It has dealt with this problem by rationing health care – instituting waiting lists for medical appointments and surgery.

    Read on at the link.

    Sweden has many layers of bureaucracy. That bureaucracy must be funded with tax money. What incentive is there to strive and become that part of the population that bears this burden? The answer is very little and that results in a survival economy. In 1970 healthcare was 6.8% of GDP; in 2004 it had risen to 9.1%. In 2013 it had risen to 9.7% even after reforms…the bureaucracy must be fed!

    The cost, in terms of health and quality of life, is been horrendous:

    In practice, the political notion of “equal access” actually means “restricted access.” Swedes who do not have private insurance must wait, often for months, for treatment. For all Swedes who needed an operation in 2003, slightly more than half waited more than three months (see Figure 2).22 The situation continues. Moreover, patients often wait in great pain and distress.

    Researchers studying Swedes waiting for hip or knee replacement concluded that “almost every aspect of daily life is affected by the indeterminate wait for surgery and the related experiences of pain and disability. … Pain and anxiety are also common problems for Swedish heart patients waiting for surgery. One study found that more than half of patients waiting for heart surgery experience chest pain daily, and longer wait times were associated with increased nervousness.26 Another study found that 88 percent of patients waiting for heart surgery reported chest pains that limited their daily activities. It also found symptoms of anxiety and depression to be strongly associated with the pain.27

    While rationing may permit the government to save on costs and thereby restrain health care budgets, putting patients on waiting lists is not cost-free. One study that examined over 1,400 Swedes on a waiting list for cataract surgery found that 5.2 million kronas were spent on hospital stays and home health care for patients waiting for surgery.28 That was the equivalent of what it would have cost to give 800 patients cataract surgery.

    A recent study that examined over 5,800 Swedish patients on a wait list for heart surgery found that the long wait has consequences far worse than pain, anxiety or monetary cost.29 In this study, the median wait time was found to be 55 days. While on the waiting list, 77 patients died.

    Heritage sponsered a conference in 2001, inviting public policy experts from European countries to discuss universal coverage:

    Americans will probably be surprised to learn from the remarks that follow that Switzerland’s health care system relies almost entirely on a system of private insurance. They might be surprised to learn that there is a growing reliance on the private sector in the financing and delivery of health care in Europe, particularly in the Netherlands, Germany, and Sweden. …

    Some Lessons…If you insist on government management of the health care system, do not expect freedom from waste, inefficiency, or inequity in the delivery of care (look at France).

    If you want to promise citizens a national or state program of universal insurance coverage, don’t expect that you will be able to deliver universal access to high-quality health care. You won’t and you can’t (look at Britain).

    If you want to fix prices for medical services, prescription drugs, or other medical devices, don’t expect demand for these goods and services to be met or investment in research and development to continue apace. It won’t (look anywhere).

    If you insist, with a straight face, that in a government-run health care system, all of your fellow citizens will be treated equally — regardless of their class, station in life, or disease condition — you are not merely enthusiastic or well intentioned. You are lying.

    There is little actual compromise in your proposal, Chris. Universal healthcare, mandated leave, increased wages based on group coercion rather than individual merit IS big government, is central planning, and involves layers of regulations. Additionally governments tend to add regulations and control features so even if an agreement such as yours was made, future legislators would begin to reverse it.

    We need an educated citizenry that understand why the universal model cannot and does not work. We need to encourage enthusiastic self reliance. We need to rely on the private sector to deliver the superior product in healthcare that we see in other areas of our economy (technology).

    Policy should support individuals to better themselves and strive for the things they want. A strong self-reliant citizenry will create a productive prosperous society with a lot less need for redistribution. Distribution would then be delivered to those who cannot rely entirely on themselves.

    My purpose here is to educate, I hope you can appreciate that.

    • Chris says:

      Tina: “What have we done to our kids!!!”

      What you’ve done is take away many of the societal advantages you had when you were a kid, and you want to take even more, in service of an impractical ideology.

      We’ve had a minimum wage in this country since before you were born. There’s little point in even entertaining arguments against the existence of the minimum wage; right-wingers may want to eliminate it, but that’s just not going to happen.

      When you were a young worker the minimum wage was higher than it is today. The bargaining power of unions was also higher. Unless you think that your generation was made lazy and dependent by these advantages, then your argument against minimum wage and unions doesn’t hold up. These arguments are also hurt by the fact that Sweden has higher social mobility, so obviously their higher wages and bargaining power haven’t made Swedes lazy and complacent. (You were right about the lack of a minimum wage; sorry about the error. The point still stands that working people have more power there and thus have higher wages.)

      Your argument that people should just get more educated and work harder if they want to move up also doesn’t hold up when you look at the reality of today’s minimum wage workers, who are more educated and productive than at any other time in our history. People are working harder and gaining more skills, and while that may benefit some individuals, it isn’t doing anything to lift the overall tide.

      There is a difference between dependency and working together. Keeping the minimum wage low and busting unions actually promotes dependency on the government because it ensures that people are underpaid at their jobs. 80% of Wal-Mart workers are on some form of public assistance; the government has to pick up the slack when corporations won’t. Policies designed to help corporations at the expense of workers clearly aren’t working.

      The canard that all countries with universal health care also have longer wait times is also misleading:

      “Beyond anecdotes, there is actual data, such as the Commonwealth Fund study showing that “U.S. patients reported relatively longer waiting times for doctor appointments when they were sick, but relatively shorter waiting times to be seen at the ER, see a specialist, and have elective surgery.” Additionally, Americans are less likely to have a regular doctor, less likely to get prescriptions filled, less likely to get follow-up care, less likely to keep a doctor long-term, and have a harder time getting taken care of nights and weekends. In another report, the Commonwealth Fund has shown the US ranks 19th out of 19 countries evaluated on preventing deaths that are amenable to adequate health care, an excellent measure of the overall performance of a country’s health care system.

      That there is more than one country outside the US with a unique health system, might surprise some whose rhetoric suggests a vast wasteland of a series of Soviet style medical gulags. OECD data shows that waiting times are a problem in some countries, but only about half of those in the OECD. The others are like the United States in lack of significant waiting times, but unlike us they manage to do this with their entire population covered, and at significantly lower costs.”

      http://www.drsforamerica.org/blog/the-waiting-times-myth

  14. Tina says:

    Jack: “…(Chris) would you be okay with taxes taking up about 70% or more of your income?

    Holy cow…thanks for the info Jack.

    Since business bears a large chunk of the healthcare burden that means taxes for other programs are very high.

    Wish I knew how to give away enthusiasm for self reliance. So many people today don;t get how satisfying and empowering it is…a real shame.

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