Posted by Tina
Both Chris and Libby have touted the Nordic states as economic models to emulate. They insist that these nations have thrived under socialist policies and no amount of rebuttal changes their minds. Well…
Tonight an article I read by Kevin D. Williamson over at National Reviewnot only blows holes in their views but also declares, “Bernie Sanders’s Denmark Comments Show He Doesn’t Even Understand His Own ‘Socialism'”
Liberal progressives in America are such a hoot!
Denmark, like Sweden before it, has been engaged in a long campaign of reforming its famously generous welfare state. The country’s current prime minister is the leader of a center-right party, which, strangely enough, goes by the name “Left,” Venstre. (You might even call it libertarian; its former longtime leader wrote a book bearing the positively Nozickian title “From Social State to Minimal State.” ) Denmark has been marching in the direction exactly opposite socialism for some time. Our friends at the Heritage Foundation rank its economy the eleventh most free in the world, one place ahead of the United States, reflecting Denmark’s strong property rights, relative freedom from corruption, low public debt, freedom of trade and investment, etc. Don’t tell Senator Sanders, but Denmark’s corporate tax rate is a heck of a lot lower than our own.
Mr. Williamson links to the NYT article:
“In the past, people never asked for help unless they needed it,” said Karen Haekkerup, the minister of social affairs and integration, who has been outspoken on the subject. “My grandmother was offered a pension and she was offended. She did not need it.
“But now people do not have that mentality. They think of these benefits as their rights. The rights have just expanded and expanded. And it has brought us a good quality of life. But now we need to go back to the rights and the duties. We all have to contribute.”
It’s hard to transform to a contributing society from the ashes of a dependent, entitled society, but they’re giving it a shot. We wish them well. If only Bernie, Hillary, and their ilk could see the light!
“But now people do not have that mentality. They think of these benefits as their rights. The rights have just expanded and expanded. And it has brought us a good quality of life. But now we need to go back to the rights and the duties. We all have to contribute.”
I heartily agree, with the proviso that we all give in accordance with our means, and the assertion that them with means were persuaded by Reagan that they need not. This must change.
I also feel compelled to point out that, in the face of Bush’s unfunded Medicare Part D, “conservatives” are in a very poor position to argue that “other people” must make sacrifices.
“The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money” — Margaret Thatcher.
However currently Liberal politicians (and some Rino’s as well)and their supporters in America are not understanding this, in fact America seems headed toward the same entitlement pitfall that Denmark is beginning to recognize.
Harold according to Heritage we’re already a step below Denmark in terms of economic and other freedoms. n part because we are rocketing toward the Marx model Libby loves and in part because the Danes woke up to the nightmare they created
The old white dead guys that came up with the Marx model should have been totally discredited by now. Unfortunately those who still cling to it have been teaching our kids for several decades. We have a lot of work to do.
Libby your statement, “I heartily agree, with the proviso that we all give in accordance with our means,” missed the point entirely! Typical!
The problem in Denmark wasn’t that the wealthy were not “paying their fair share,” the problem was that there were too many able bodied people taking from the largess and CONTRIBUTING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING…NO WORK, NO TAXES, NO PRODUCT, NO GROWTH. Their entitlement society was unsustainable due to the stupidity of the Marxist model.
The people who pay the bulk of taxes are also responsible for growth and job creation through investment of their money. You foolishly don’t count this CONTRIBUTION to our society. We are seeing the effects of that error under this socialist president. Sluggish growth and lousy job growth and pay.
Capitalism isn’t perfect, no system can be, especially since people take the easy path given a chance. But capitalism works when implemented. Capitalism creates opportunity. Capitalism creates wealth. Capitalism creates jobs. Capitalism builds a strong middle class. And capitalism supports people in using their own talents and skills to be self sufficient and not a burden on tax payers Capitalism is a system of contribution by a healthy majority! When we have a healthy majority we can afford to care for the needs of people who are truly in need (Although I still believe that is best done through private organizations that offer a more personal touch).
As for Bush’s Part D it was unfortunate that the unsustainable Democrat created and flawed Medicare program needed to be altered. At least Part D contains some free market principles that help to bring the program in within budget more consistently than does the medicare program overall. In 2011 Politifact found that because of the way the plan was structured it came in from 28% to 40% UNDER BUDGET. The difference was in how the numbers were crunched but the 28% makes no sense to me since it counts what individuals contribute from their own pockets which has nothing to do with the government budget.
There are all kinds of unintended consequences to big government programs. Obamacare was about making sure everyone had health insurance. It didn’t deliver as promised, of course, but that’s not all. The Washington Examiner informs that Obamacare’s mandates have caused a school district in Tennessee to shut down:
But that’s not all. The state has decided it would close it’s “Obamacare-funded co-op, becoming the sixth state to do so.”
Economically, Obummercare doesn’t work, suprise, suprise.
Democrats are stupid when it comes to money but they’re insane when it comes to how they construct laws. They don’t care what it costs. they don’t care if it creates debt. They don’t even really care if it helps or hurts people; helping people is nothing more than a prop in the quest to gain power. They have their eyes on permanent, one party power now. That kind of tyranny is something we don’t need or want.
Tina that is a hit piece and no more.
You also fail to understand what Senator Sanders is saying. A Democratic Socialist.
You seem to forget many things he proposes are things we had before conservatives came around and started privatizing everything.
People who do nothing? Like people on social security? Vets benefits? Public education?
Wall Street has desecrated all hope in America. Before one complains about socialist things like their social security check maybe they should give it up first.
Why not talk about specific policies instead of these continued generalized hit pieces.
Why do republicans in Vermont vote for Bernie? His Policies. He has always been a declared Democratic Socialist. It is not what you think.
Name a successful Conservative policy? How did schools become better after Reagan? or medical research after taken from universities and privatized? Costs went up. Taxes for the people not subsidies for the rich, what a thought!
Explain to me how trump using the government to round up 12 Million people, put them in camps, to supposedly be thrown out will look? Will they stay in these for profit slave factories for awhile? Maybe make some “trump ties” first? How much will that cost us? How many kids will be left without parents? That is crazy!
Breaking: US uses domestic Drones firing rubber bullets to round up illegal immigrants to be held in for profit detention camps. Care will be taken to weed out US citizens, however there may be a few casualties. Border walls finished. USA on Lockdown. Both Borders sealed. Usa will continue to export products made in these new factories. …Hum WW2 all over again funny how racists like all these ideas
Dewey, a Sanders suck up. Who would have figured?
Pie give it up,
“Wall Street has desecrated all hope in America.” If it were not for this lunatic, and his comrades Libby and Chris, Post Scripts would be bereft of entertainment value.
Wasn’t too long ago that Debbie Blabbermouth-Shultz was asked (believe it was on a MSNBC show) to define the difference between the Demwits and Socialists, and she COULDN’T DO IT! She’s been asked that again, but is still unable to come up with an answer.
And since Bernie is registered as an Independent in Vermont, what is he doing on the Demwit stage?
So, let’s see if I have this straight. Bernie, the registered independent, is running against HRC. This means he intends to defeat her. Anything that hurts her campaign helps his. To this end, he gives her a pass with “…the American people are sick and tired of hearing about your damn emails.”
Right.
IMHO, the whole debate is a put-up job by the DNC to make HRC look good.
What they got was the equivalent of “HRC looks brilliant in debate with Mrs. Johnson’s fifth grade class.”
So, imagine their heads exploding when this happened—
http://borepatch.blogspot.com/2015/10/media-bias.html
To answer your questions that were announced months before:
Senator Sanders was thinking about a presidential Run but did not want to split the vote. If he ran he would run on the Democratic ticket. He almost did not. Senator Sanders has been doing radio for about ten years called Brunch with Bernie on the Thom Hartman DC radio show for about 10 years. He almost did not run because he was not sure the people were ready to organize a movement and a failed campaign would do more harm than good for the country. The people pushed him as hard as they could.
He has caucused with the Dems during his career. I am an Independent that has t usually vote Dem as the lessor of 2 evils. Given the state of the GOP party who would run on that ticket? Their congress has been taken over by bullies who demand their ideas and no others. They are ot a democratic party. I believe it is my way or the highway. Why do you think no one is stupid enough to take speaker yet? There is a coup inside congress. Your coup.
DWS is a corportist tool. She does not like seeing Bernie’s rise in polls or the movement building. She has denied more debates, or candidates to debate out of her control. Furthermore the 1st Democratic debates were held By CNN owned by Time Warner. Hilliary’s 7th largest Donor. They control the messaging. They also denied their own poll as to who viewers thought was the winner not that it matters as it went well for both. CNN is deleting pro bernie comments from their facebook page to where supporters are commenting on any story and tearing them a new one on Twitter.
Whether it is Clinton or Trump Media rakes in the election money in ads. They have no use for Senator Sanders who will not allow mega donors or pacs. He is not making them money. Jeb / Clinton was Media’s pick. They control all elections and are no longer required to speak truth. When Bill Clinton signed the telecommunications act it was the final straw no longer requiring News to be for public service. it is Infotainment, and Propaganda.
Elections go 24/7 for donor money our system is no more than a fascist dream with their own media.
Even though they are moving toward a more free market economy, Denmark is still a lot more socialist than America.
“Don’t tell Senator Sanders, but Denmark’s corporate tax rate is a heck of a lot lower than our own.”
Yes, and their corporations are also a heck of a lot smaller. Aren’t any conservatives Spider-Man fans? “With great power comes great responsibility?”
I once owned two copies of the first two years of the Spiderman comic magazine. One was read, the other never opened and saved. For a punk twit like you to invoke a that is laughable. Tell that to Obama and Hillary, jackass. You think Denmark’s corporations are stupid? Yes, you do. Jackass on top of jackass.
Good heavens. Somebody should check on the man.
name calling looses debates
Intelligence trumps name calling. So far name calling is all your candidates have done. What else you have to offer?
Just once I would like to see Dewey, Chris, or Libby demonstrate some intelligence, but I know that is too much to ask for.
I’ll let Bernie respond to you” Quotes ”
(As for our not being Denmark, I am not trying to turn the United States into Denmark or any other country in the world. But if we look and see that Denmark has a health care system that treats its people better than ours at lower cost, just as an example, are we forbidden to try it because it hasn’t got a “Made in America” label on it? We’re a lot smarter than that — and saying otherwise is a slander on our people.)
(I consider myself a social democrat, yes. And for me, what social democracy simply means is a system that leaves room for small enterprises and individual liberty but also recognizes the fact that we’re all part of a larger community, and what hurts any one group of us eventually hurts us all. So there are some things we don’t leave to the so-called free market. We don’t want people going hungry or suffering from sickness or at the bottom of the ladder in educational attainments because they can’t afford them — especially when in economic downturns millions of us lose jobs through no fault of our own. So we tax ourselves to put money into a common kitty to make sure those things don’t happen and we’re all the better off for it. In other words we agree to bear each others’ burdens and make others’ suffering our concern, bound in “brotherly affection.” A far cry from the virtues of unrestricted and unregulated winner-take-all competition.
And do you know that that’s a basic American idea? What I just said comes straight from a sermon preached by minister John Winthrop to the band of fellow Puritans landing in Massachusetts in 1634. And it’s an idea picked up again and again throughout our history, from early state laws providing for public health and safety and punishing fraud, right on through to the Progressive period and the New Deal when we provided security for our elders, strengthened the bargaining power of workers, created public works programs to stimulate employment and spending, opened space for small business by breaking trusts, and reduced inequality to reasonable levels — without touching the basics of capitalism. That’s the American way and always has been, and I could name a long list of American heroes who embraced it if there were time. So let’s move past labels and start addressing the crises we face now.)
Mystery solved
Bernie as quoted by Dewey: “But if we look and see that Denmark has a health care system that treats its people better than ours at lower cost, just as an example, are we forbidden to try it because it hasn’t got a “Made in America” label on it?”
No Bern….because they couldn’t sustain the “damn” thing! It was breaking their backs economically.
It would be ‘nice” if every person in America could have a Mercedes and live in a mansion but we could ever pay for it.
Bernie doesn’t understand human nature or how money works.
How easy it is though to be generous with the money other people earn.
More Bernie: “what social democracy simply means is a system that leaves room for small enterprises and individual liberty but also recognizes the fact that we’re all part of a larger community, and what hurts any one group of us eventually hurts us all.”
Nice reasoning. The problem with it is that socialist programs create shared misery for many citizens, comfortable but going nowhere for others, and an elitist wealthy group of administrators at the top.
They do not create dynamic, growing economies or greater opportunity for citizens to build up wealth for themselves. They do not deliver the nirvana that is promised and then when the painful reality, “We can’t afford this” sets in, it is a very painful process to let go of what was free. We can’t treat people like babies and expect them to perform as adults, especially when we tie their hands and send them out in the world handicapped with the burdens of paying high taxes!
Marx was wrong my friend…flat out wrong!
“So we tax ourselves to put money into a common kitty to make sure those things don’t happen and we’re all the better off for it. In other words we agree to bear each others’ burdens and make others’ suffering our concern, bound in “brotherly affection.” A far cry from the virtues of unrestricted and unregulated winner-take-all competition”
Typical progressive clap trap. We don’t “bear EACH OTHERS burdens under your model; we TAKE from one citizen to bear the burdens of another whether or not he’s able to care for his own needs. You assume that the ONLY way to take care of the truly needy is through taxation and government programs. There are better ways. Charity and economic prosperity are two. Charity offers a more personal response to the needy. A thriving economy brings some people out of dependency and poverty lessening the need for charity. And one more thing. Government education has failed poor people in minority communities for decades even though progressives run the school system. The model you prefer doesn’t bear the burden of education with an even hand. The model you prefer discourages poor kids from becoming productive independent contributing citizens and encourages dependence.
Your words sound nice but it doesn’t mean that what you propose will have the result you imagine. In fact the unintended consequences can be devastating.
“And it’s an idea picked up again and again throughout our history, from early state laws providing for public health and safety and punishing fraud, right on through to the Progressive period and the New Deal when we provided security for our elders, strengthened the bargaining power of workers, created public works programs to stimulate employment and spending…”
And prolonged the depression for much longer than it needed to last. And set union workers on a greedy path that ended in failing businesses (car makers/steel industry) and sent jobs overseas. Progressive policy has busted government budgets, increasing debt and set us on a path of unsustainable programs that now need reform. It’s all a grand illusion as all progressive dreams are.
The unintended consequences of this illusion must be faced or shared misery will be the fate of all except the 1% who will always have and make money.
People are fools if they don’t support policies that put that wealth to work for everyone through investment in private enterprise. Government doesn’t invest; it only spends and that will not grow or even sustain an economy!
John Winthrop may have spoken of taking care of one another in brotherly love but he did not propose that we should do it through government. He was speaking to individuals. Individual effort, individual charity, individual contribution, individual self sufficiency makes for a strong citizen body. Charity given individually is more personal and a blessing to both the giver and the recipient. A cold government program does neither!
Tina “No Bern….because they couldn’t sustain the “damn” thing! It was breaking their backs economically.”
Tina our Heathcare system is driven for Investor Profits. It is a high cost useless system because it is all about their wall street health not curing disease. Another thing is to get business out of the business of supplying insurance. The new trick is to not offer any credits towards these corporate health exchanges and force employees into non subsidized high cost policies for kickbacks. Your Medicare is socialism. Period.
“Bernie doesn’t understand human nature or how money works. ” Tina you do not. Furthermore “Money” is not God. Investor Profits should not govern what drug is out there or what it costs. A profit is fine, increasing those profits for Investors every year at the cost of human lives is disgusting.
There is a huge world economic crisis coming. The banks are out of control. Unregulated too big to fail Banks betting American people’s deposits in a Casino called wall street only to leave the bail out to taxpayers is your perfect world.
Business can not be trusted to regulate itself. There is no free market. Robber Barron’s never go away. Bernie would tear your whole deal up with facts in a debate.
Chico is no where near an example of what is going on in this country. try moving around the country. See it with your own eyes.
I suggest all conservatives give up any socialist social security, medicare, vets benefits ect to prove their point. Every time you cash a social security check remember that is a socialist check.
I hereby declare Bernie Sanders as my Primary Vote. Who is yours?
Re : “I hereby declare Bernie Sanders as my Primary Vote.”
Like no one saw that coming. I suspect that even Bernie would not appreciate this endorsement.
Maybe one of these days Dewey will learn the proper abbreviation for et cetera, i.e. he might actually stop abusing English, Latin, and Post Scripts with his vast wealth of drivel.
Fat chance.
Dewey your statement, “our Heathcare system is driven for Investor Profits,” is upside down.
The people have healthcare needs. To deliver that healthcare enterprising people got together to build and run hospitals, pharmacies, nursing homes, etc. Other enterprising people went into the business as doctors and nurses. Still others went into business to make and develop the machines and tools needed to help patients. Investors did their part by giving big chunks of their own money so these things could become a reality. In exchange for their generous investment they are offered a return, about 2-3% on average, sometimes a little higher. That is not an obscene amount. The money is their property just as clearly as any other possession and when they invest it they can’t use it any longer for personal luxury’s or frivolities. These people should be applauded. They should definitely get a return on the money that makes it possible for companies to deliver healthcare related products and services. The people that work in these industries also “profit” from these investments…they have good jobs.
There is nothing odd or obscene or wrong about making a profit in this way. If you have a pension plan you have profited in this way. If you’ve ever required medical services you have profited from the investments others made.
As a learning tool some of our readers might enjoy Introduction to Dividends/Investing in Dividend Stocks.
” Your Medicare is socialism. ”
No contest there. The difference between us is I would never have implemented the program. Since 1965 when Medicare was enacted the cost of medical care has skyrocketed. Some of that is due to innovations in medicine. But in reality those costs would come down faster in a market driven system. The price for a wide screen TV came down within five years. Now most Americans own one. The market, supply and demand and direct purchase made that happen. It could be that way in medicine as well. When you take the consumer (the patient) out of the direct buying process prices are determined by third party payers that frankly have no reason to care, payment doesn’t directly come from their wallets and doesn’t impact their personal budgets. Third party systems like Medicare also require an expensive bureaucracy. These systems also represent pools of cash where fraudsters hang out. Waste abounds because the customer (the patient) isn’t directly paying the bill. The provider doesn’t have to justify or answer to the consumer. There is no incentive to keep healthcare affordable!!
“Money” is not God
Oh brother. Money is certainly driving you! For you, money isn’t simply a tool. Nope, money is an entity, probably an evil entity. It runs you. You’re obsessed!
“increasing those profits for Investors every year at the cost of human lives is disgusting.”
It’s also disgusting to make such an outlandish and ill-informed statement.
A. Investor profits don’t increase automatically every year.
B. Human lives are SAVED and quality of life is better becasue of those investments!
“the banks are out of control….Unregulated too big to fail Banks ”
You’re nothing but a bumper sticker! Banks are regulated now more than ever! The socialist Dodd Frank regulations are thousands of pages long and very complex!!! The Fed has kept interest rates down artificially meaning neither banks nor their depositors are making money but the stock market is. How does that fit with your “socialism is better” view?
Under one of the more progressive presidents this nation has ever seen, the 1% has had most of the opportunity, our debt is staggering, poverty is the new normal, and Obamacare rearranged the deck chairs on what is now a sinking ship. the people are oppressed in a stagnant economy!
“Business can not be trusted to regulate itself.”
But government employees and representatives can be trusted? We need some regulations but they should be straightforward, understandable, and easy for companies to meet. Socialist governments seek to manage, control, and profit from business and that is fascism.
Our regulations are burdensome and costly and they cause the price to consumers for goods and services to go up unnecessarily. Much of what passes for safety regulations are just a bunch of busywork. they do nothing to actually make the work place safe. They certainly cannot do anything to prevent mistakes. human beings make those you know.
“There is no free market.”
No, not as long as the government sticks it’s big fat intrusive nose in the middle of it, tries to control and manipulate it, and ends up wasting a lot of energy, time and money in the process!
“Bernie would tear your whole deal up with facts”
Bernie is a socialist. He is all about ideology. He doesn’t need facts In fact, facts would only get in his way. This is a system that pretends to give things to people for free. What utter ignorance does it take to believe anything in this world is free.Bernie knows but doesn’t want to talk about whether higher taxes for college will mean fewer jobs as cash is redirected. He dosn’t want to to talk about how much it will cost for the bureaucracy and how much waste would be involved. Bernie isn’t interested in how his free government programs impact character. No facts, especially the unintended consequences are not something Bernie would care to think about much less debate. In his fairy dusted dream these things don’t exist; he simply waves them away along with the cruelty of anyone to bring them up.
“try moving around the country. See it with your own eyes.”
Such an arrogant guy. It’s obvious to me that with all your so-called travel you haven’t learned a thing. You really don’t know much about what I think even after reading this blog for some time. You imagine what I think…you make it up.
“Every time you cash a social security check remember that is a socialist check.”
Dewey how could I not! Whenever I cash my SS check I remember that this was a system that was forced on me, that gives me a lousy return on the money I invested, and that is now dependent on a shrinking workforce to pay for a growing body of seniors. What a stupid, ill-conceived plan! It’s a complete rip off to future generations.
Those young people need to know what a rip off it is.
My vote goes to anyone but Bernie Sanders, Hilary Clinton, or anyone else that is dumb enough to think socialism works.
You realize we are coming and the revolution is about taking on the Banks and billionaire class. It will continue for years!
The Banks may beat us up pretty bad in this crash looming. yet conservatives say they can do whatever they want cause it should self regulate. Dems take their money and slap silly fines on them. Silly little circle of corruption it is.
A Bank Robber goes to jail. A Bank Robbing people is the Free market.
Name calling is so useless.
Sorry Conservatism is a bust. GW put in you tax cuts for the rich, tried to privatize social security, and started wars. Where did he get us? America has had enough of the obstructionism.
Try throwing out labels and talk about real issues.
An election is coming and the GOP has no candidate yet. Might want to get one. Is Ol Mittens waiting to strike?
Dewey stop misrepresenting what conservatives say.
You’re rambling on like crazy. Try to focus on one issue at a time.
Bush inherited a recession from the dotcom bubble under Clinton. He lowered tax rates across the board and doubled the child tax credit to get the economy rolling again. These changes helped working middle class families. Here are the rate changes:
The 39.6 percent rate moved to 35 percent, the 36 percent rate to 33 percent, the 31 percent rate to 28 percent, and the 28 percent rate to 25 percent. It created a new 10 percent bracket, and there was no change to the 15 percent rate. Also a provision to move the top rate back to 39.6 percent in response to the fiscal cliff deal.
Your accusation is a lie Dewey and you are a fool to believe it.
Socialist Democrats “beat us up” for their hand in creating the housing bubble and financial crisis and then through their responses afterward when they had majority control of Congress and the presidency. Our economy has not recovered under socialist policies in seven years. Job growth does not meet demand. We have high levels of poverty. Economic growth has bumped along the bottom since the recession ended in 2009 (2%). There are more banking and health insurance monopolies now. Massive (stupid) regulations have been added to an already disturbing number of regulations. Many small to medium banks and insurance companies have disappeared or been absorbed and those monopolies work with and support Democrats. Bernie is either with them or not. Which is it?
A June 2013 article in the Spectator discusses what the radical socialists insist are not enough regulations:
This isn’t regulation Dewey, this is a massive covert take over. This isn’t about sound safety practices or fairness; this is about control over both the business and civilian sectors. This amounts to tyranny. This is un-American.
Companies have no power to tax you, take your property, arrest you, put you in jail, or even to make you buy what they sell.
Government has the power to do all of those oppressive things. The more laws and regulations the government passes, and the more complex the regulations, the greater the ability for government to oppress all of us…even you. Bernie wants more power in government…more control…more regulations…more taxes.
WAKE UP!
Thank you Tina.
You’re welcome.
It is my passion to counter all of the deceptive language and outright lies the left uses to win people over. It disgusts me to the point that words will not adequately express.
I am so grateful for this opportunity to express myself and read the things that others have to say. We all have our own perspectives and this forum allows me to see things in ways I might not have otherwise noticed.