by Jack
It’s been suggested that the defense for Zimmerman might as well rest as soon as the prosecution is done presenting their case. So far every key witness and the evidence presented corroborates what Zimmerman said to police, and if he was telling the truth, then there’s no case! There never was a case! Even the police officers who interviewed him said he sounded credible. If this is all the prosecution has, then there’s no case and likely no hint of racism either, except for the carefully protected media omissions of Martin’s racist language and his aggressive conduct. I see racism there, but apparently the media missed it.
We’ve seen how the evidence supports that Zimmerman was in fact being beaten, that Martin was on top and that Martin was shot… one time.
Presumably if one was in a bigoted rage and determined to let the black guy have it, he would have pulled the trigger more than once just to be sure that Martin was dead. As for the screaming for help and who was doing it, who would have the best reason to be screaming? Would it be the guy on the bottom being beaten or the guy doing the beating? Martin’s parents want us to believe it was him. Zimmerman repeatedly said he was in fear of his life as he was being beaten and smothered by Martin who said, “You’re going to die tonight” and that he screamed for help.
Where’s the proof of racism as the motive for the shooting? I don’t see it. However, I see a motive for the beating. Martin said he was going after this “M.F. creepy cracker.” We could write pages on the finer points, but no matter what you thought going in by now you have to admit this is one weak case. It’s certainly the weakest I’ve ever seen, and I’ve seen a lot of them!
Who or what compelled this case to go to trial if there was no probable cause to believe a homicide was committed? Was this a result of racist protesters putting pressure on the system? Was it Obama making his proclamation that if he had a son he would look just like Trayvon? Was it Eric Holder who saw this as racism and was determined to finally make a racism case? I think we deserve know, because at this point the prosecution looks downright foolish. It looks like this trial was a waste of the taxpers money and worse, that it was a blatant attempt to persecute Zimmerman because he was white and Martin was black and appeasement was seen as the expedient thing to do.
Sorry, this guy needs to go to jail. He had no business chasing that kid. I have teenagers who walk back from the store at night and if someone was chasing them, I have told them to defend themselves at all costs. Zimmerman had no authority to do what he did. The kid was doing nothing wrong. This wasn’t a horrible accident, this was an idiot wanna be cop whose stupidity resulted in the death of someone’s son. I can’t think of this case without thinking of my own kids. That could have been my kid.
Princess I respect your opinion to think whatever you wish, but I want to correct something, he wasn’t chasing. He was keeping his distance and he was watching this adult sized person because he didn’t recognize him as living in the complex (and he wasn’t living there).
Okay, (my opinion) please consider this….the other day this guy walks up to my neighbor’s house, it’s dark out, he messes around with the front door and looks in the mailbox. Then walks back on to the sidewalk.
Another neighbor and myself saw this go down and so we approached him and said in a nice way, just curious what you were doing? He explained he was our neighbor’s nephew and was just checking to be sure her house was locked up and the mail had been stopped, because she was on vacation. He identified himself and he checked out fine and all was fine. But, lets day had he gotten mad at being approached or just being watched…. who knows what might have happened. Were we being any different than Zimmerman? We were just following up on what looked suspicious as good citizens. No laws were broken and we saved the cops an unfounded suspicious person’s call.
Unless there’s something new to heard in this case, Zimmerman was within his rights to be suspcious and even follow Martin given the circumstances. Now on the other other side, there’s a law against assault. Zimmerman didn’t deserve to get beaten up and have his head slammed into the sidewalk! There’s also a law against threatening to kill someone. And if that threat happens while you are being beaten and smothered, I think you have a right to believe they mean it.
So, all things considered to date… I’m going with Zimmerman on this one, unless there’s some incredible evidence yet to be reavealled, I think the guy was railroaded. I think he was acting totally within his rights. Martin on the other hand was being a punk, and it’s highly likely he was the one that had the race problem that got things out of control. Again, just my opinion and you have a right to yours.
Jack: “Who or what compelled this case to go to trial if there was no probable cause to believe a homicide was committed? Was this a result of racist protesters putting pressure on the system? Was it Obama making his proclamation that if he had a son he would look just like Trayvon? Was it Eric Holder who saw this as racism and was determined to finally make a racism case?”
I first saw an article about this case one month after it happened. The locals had already determined that murder charges did not apply and could not be prosecuted. The articles headline oddly characterized Zimmerman as a “white” Latino, a term I have never heard or seen used in media before. The article was accompanied by an old photo of Martin that made him look like a child of about twelve. Within days the case attracted what seemed like an organized campaign of black affrontery with protesters screaming racism. The President stuck his opportunistic nose into it and Eric Holder did nothing about the Black Panther “Wanted Dead or Alive” flyer that offered a $10,00.00 bounty for his “capture”, effectively condoning the criminal act and assuring that Zimmerman would be arrested and remain in jail until a trial could be forced with pressure from the offices of Erik Holder and state prosecutors. Posted at Change.org, linked above:
This smells like another community organized event and yet another case of extreme abuse of power…possibly a racist abuse of power…from an administration rife with such abuse.
“This smells like another community organized event and yet another case of extreme abuse of power…possibly a racist abuse of power…from an administration rife with such abuse.” tina
Yep, it sure does. I think Holder was instructed to send out his DOJ investigators to uncover some sinister racist motive and then hang the white guy in order to appease the mobs of dimwitted people seeing this only with their own prejudiced eyes.
Princess do some reading. Martin wasn’t “chasing” the kid.
I’ve been watching the trial and reading the testimony every day. He was told not to pursue the suspect and he did. That is chasing as far as I’m concerned. Look, I realize that political interests have hijacked this case for their own agenda. But for me it has always boiled down to a guy that was out of line. The kid did nothing wrong. If Zimmerman had stayed in his car we wouldn’t be talking about this. He didn’t and now a kid who was walking home from the store is dead.
Princess, when it comes to the law you must be specific and words do count. The word follow is not the same as the word chase. Chase is closer to stalk than follow, so was he stalking? Was he told not to “follow” or was it suggested he not “follow?” And by what authority was this made? Was it the authority of a police dispatcher or a police officer? A police dispatcher has no legal authority to order a person to do anything, they are not sworn personnel. Zimmerman was under no legal responsibility to obey the dispatcher and this is confusing to many people. There are a lot of woulda, shoulda, coulda’s here, but they do not a criminal make.
I want to add that as much as I feel Zimmerman is guilty, I think the prosecution is overreaching with the charge of 2nd degree murder. I believe that manslaughter would have been sufficient. I think Zimmerman needs to be punished, but this was not a murder and it is ridiculous to prosecute it as such. This was an accidental shooting in a heated fight that shouldn’t have happened in the first place. I suspect that because of the 2nd degree murder charge Zimmerman is going to get off because from what I have seen in the testimony, there isn’t enough to convict and I don’t believe manslaughter is an option.
Zimmerman can’t be punished unless being foolish is a crime. He foolishly exposed himself to too much risk and when push came to shove he didn’t have anything to back it up except for his gun. That made him a danger to himself and others, but it didn’t necessarily make him a criminal. You have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to 12 people he met the elements for a 2nd degree murder. Now check this out and this is just manslaughter, not 2nd murder:
1.Manslaughter by Act: Committing an act that was neither excusable, nor justified that resulted in the death of another person.
2.Manslaughter by Procurement: Persuading, inducing, or encouraging another person to commit an act that resulted in the death of another person.
3.Manslaughter by Culpable Negligence: Engaging in “Culpably Negligent” conduct that resulted in the death of another person.
Penalties for Manslaughter
The crime of Manslaughter is classified as a Second Degree Felony and is assigned a Level 7 offense severity ranking under Florida’s Criminal Punishment Code. If convicted of Manslaughter, a judge is required to impose a minimum prison sentence of 9¼ years in prison and can impose any additional combination of the following penalties:
•Up to 15 years in prison.
•Up to 15 years of probation.
•Up to $10,000 in fines.
Now here’s what the state must prove and it just ins’t there…
The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(3) When a human being is killed during the perpetration of, or during the attempt to perpetrate, any:
(a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
(b) Arson,
(c) Sexual battery,
(d) Robbery,
(e) Burglary,
(f) Kidnapping,
(g) Escape,
(h) Aggravated child abuse,
(i) Aggravated abuse of an elderly person or disabled adult,
(j) Aircraft piracy,
(k) Unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb,
(l) Carjacking,
(m) Home-invasion robbery,
(n) Aggravated stalking,
(o) Murder of another human being,
(p) Aggravated fleeing or eluding with serious bodily injury or death,
(q) Resisting an officer with violence to his or her person, or
(r) Felony that is an act of terrorism or is in furtherance of an act of terrorism,
by a person other than the person engaged in the perpetration of or in the attempt to perpetrate such felony, the person perpetrating or attempting to perpetrate such felony commits murder in the second degree, which constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
Princess: “He was told not to pursue the suspect and he did.”
No, he was told he didn’t have to pursue the suspect. There’s a difference.
Chasing is when a person runs after another with the intention of catching up with him. That is not how this went down.
You say you have been watching the trial. I haven’t but I have heard news accounts and seen pictures of Zimmerman’s face and the back of his head. One witness testified that he believed Martin was the man on top in the struggle and that’s consistent with Zimmerman’s injuries and story…a story he willingly conveyed to police without an attorney present. Officers have said his story never changed under interrogation and that he was totally cooperative.
“The kid did nothing wrong.”
The kid did do something wrong…and something really stupid.
A kid out at night who thinks its “creepy” that someone is following him should go immediately to a house or store (or his own house if its close) and tell an adult what is happening. He should not decide to confront the person with attitude! He should not choose to get tough and pound on the guy, beating his head on the pavement. He should not do threatening things or say threatening things…that’s asking for trouble.
Beating on someone is called assault and that is a criminal offense is it not?
If you are really worried about your kids, Princess, I hope you are instructing them to act defensively if they think they are being followed.
If the kid had stayed home we wouldn’t be talking about this. If the kid had just gone home we wouldn’t be talking about this.
It’s sad and unfortunate that this kid is dead but from what we know so far his fate and death was decided when he stupidly chose to cop an attitude and teach that “creepy a** cracker” a lesson.
Both acted stupidly. But one was a teenager, and the other a grown-ass man. I agree with Princess that the murder charge is an overreach, if Martin did indeed attack first. I would say the prosecution should have at least put manslaughter on the table. Zimmerman acted with reckless endangerment by following Martin and because of that Martin died. That’s not to say Martin was not also responsible, but again, he was a teenager. Zimmerman should have complied with instructions. “You don’t have to follow him,” from an officer or operator, clearly means “Don’t follow him.” Surely Zimmerman knew that.
I agree this case got out of control in the media due to the initial lack of clarity about who attacked who first. We didn’t know that Martin attacked Zimmerman before but now that seems to be the case. I jumped to conclusions and I seem to have been wrong. But that doesn’t mean race had nothing to do with this. I believe Zimmerman did profile Martin and that is why he followed him. And it should make us think about the potential consequences of racial profiling, whether it comes from officers or just citizens who think they can act as officers.
Chris see my comments to Princess, they apply to your comments too. : )
“Zimmerman can’t be punished unless being foolish is a crime. He foolishly exposed himself to too much risk and when push came to shove he didn’t have anything to back it up except for his gun.”
Travon was armed?
Jack, Z wasn’t “foolish”. He killed a man.
Libby, not every death is a criminal act. The question seems to be, was it an imprudent or foolish action or was it a criminal action that precipitated this death? Let me add, one could argue Z was acting 100% prudently too, but that’s a minority opinion. I think most of us at this point are somewhere between a little foolish and outright criminal conduct. I’m going with no criminal conduct. I think it was a case of self defense and in that case it was a justifiable homicide.
Travon was foolish.
Informed speculation follows:
So we assume two foolish men and because of the foolishness one ends up dead and the other ends up with head injuries suggesting violence ensued. I have not heard of marks on Trayvon’s face. I did read he had marks on his hands…and, of course, the gun shot wound. This suggests that Martin wasn’t able to throw return punches or at least none that landed. Martin says he was attacked. We learn Martin was atop Z throwing punches. We know Z’s head received blows at the back and he had grass on his back. Have we learned yet how the gun came into play? If that fact lends credence to Martin’s case I would think the prosecution would have made it a key point in the trial. Did they struggle for control of the gun? If so either of them could have ended up dead.
Yes it may be an event that began with a bunch of foolishness but it sure looks like when push came to shove self defense was the only course to take. It isn’t that Zimmerman is not responsible, he is and he acted responsibly following the incident. His responsibility in the foolishness does not reach the level of murder. The man and his family will probably have to assume new identities if a just decision is reached. Given the political shenanigans, especially, he has already paid more than enough IMHO.
Trayvon was acting like a punk. He had a bad attitude and he used very, very poor judgement. That much has been established by his school situation, his actions on the night of his death and backed up by his phone conversation. At the time he was killed he was obviously angry and to complicate that anger he statements indicated he had some racist issues, (phone conversation with the girlfriend.)
I’m not sayintg he didn’t have a right to walk up to Z and ask him whats up? He could have simply asked, “Excuse me sir, but why are you following me? I’m just trying to get home and I live right over there?’ Z could have explained why, he looked suspicious, he didn’t know he was staying in the area and further there had been some breakins. Trayvon could have thanked him for his concern and Z could have thanked him for his understanding and both parties having understood each other could have parted company. But, that didn’t happen did it? Because somebody had to get stupid and cop an attitude and go to fist city. Trayvon got all backed up and started a fight with a guy he thought he could whip and he never considered the guy might be packing. Big stupid mistake.
Is Obama back from his vacation or do you think he will still be out of touch I mean back before the riots? I guess he can rent a mob from AF-1 easy enough.
Look, I’m not the biggest gun control advocate in the world (since I have a safe full of them) but I do believe in gun safety and this guy was an idiot. Why wasn’t the safety on? If I understand the testimony correctly he had a bullet in the chamber. Why? This is freaking neighborhood watch, he is not a cop. I feel bad for him. He was trying to take care of his neighborhood. But he was not a trained law enforcement officer and he had no business getting involved in this.
“But he was not a trained law enforcement officer and he had no business getting involved in this.”
Princess, no doubt most of America would agree with you, but that doesn’t make him a criminal. As for the safety, that’s not relevant. He wanted to shoot the guy, he pulled the trigger and he did shoot him. Gun worked exactly as intended. A round in the chamber was how the gun was designed to work. Now if you are trying to show a state of mind or as they say in court…”mens rea” which is an element of criminal responsibility, a guilty mind; a guilty or wrongful purpose; a criminal intent. Guilty knowledge and wilfulness.
A fundamental principle of Criminal Law is that a crime consists of both a mental and a physical element. Mens rea, a person’s awareness of the fact that his or her conduct is criminal, is the mental element, and actus reus, the act itself, is the physical element.
Having a round in the chamber in a semi-automatic weapon is not unusual and thats why they have a safety, otherwise it would take both hands to jack a round into the chamber and in a crisis this too slow and cumbersome.
I’m not sure how involved Z wanted to get. He was calling the police to report a suspicious person, that tells me he wanted the police to do contact part, not himself, however contact was forced on him by Trayvon or so it would seem.