Posted by Tina
If anyone has ever accused you of having “white privilege” or suggested that you should “check” yours I’ve got a link for you. A so-called “white privileged” student, Kyle Becker whose a freshman at Princeton, decided to do some research to find out exactly how privileged he was as a white man after being so labeled. His account demonstrates the ludicrous notion behind this class warfare rhetoric. A snippet to spark your interest:
Perhaps it’s the privilege my grandfather and his brother had to flee their home as teenagers when the Nazis invaded Poland, leaving their mother and five younger siblings behind, running and running until they reached a Displaced Persons camp in Siberia, where they would do years of hard labor in the bitter cold until World War II ended….
There are thousands and thousands of family stories across America like this and they date back for generations. Stories of hard work and struggle, of tragedy and sacrifice, stories of failure and despair and doing without. Even stories of white indentured servitude and slavery, especially if you go back far enough. Kyles ancestry could go back to the Jews in Egypt under Pharaoh.
Not a single person has control over his birth circumstance and not a single person can control the heritage of his family. Everyone has pain and suffering in their lives and obstacles to overcome. The important thing is what people do with their lives as they live it. Hanging on to the past and using past grievances to shame or label others or working to extract recompense for the past wrongs of people you’ve never met is a waste of energy.
Teaching students that they should feel guilt and shame for the sins of others is despicable. Many people have worked very hard to overcome those wrongs so we can all move forward.
Floating this political weapon of redistribution and pay back is offensive on so many levels. The lie does harm to our society and to very American and it burdens young people rather than freeing them to let go and move ahead with their own lives.
Peggy you beat me to the post…isn’t this a good article?
Sorry about that. You know what they say about great minds. Kidding.
It was just sooooo good I had to share.
“Teaching students that they should feel guilt and shame for the sins of others is despicable.”
I agree. Do you have any evidence that professors who teach the concept of white privilege are teaching students to feel guilt or shame for being white? Every professor I’ve had who has dealt with the issue has strongly emphasized that guilt and shame are useless emotions.
The writer of this piece shows zero understanding of what white privilege is. He doesn’t address a single example of obstacles that people still face today due to race and gender. He says he “won’t apologize,” but who asked for his apology? None of my professors, none of my colleagues at multi-ethnic lit. conferences, and none of the anti-racists or feminists I’ve ever talked to online has ever asked me to apologize or feel guilty for being white and male. Not a single one. It’s possible that he’s had a different experience at college than I did, but since he gives no specifics, it’s hard to see how he’s doing anything but arguing with a strawman.
Yes, Both your comments Tina and Peggy’s post in prior PS are excellent posts, well worth the read.
My opinion of AA and all it’s counter parts is that it has resulted in unfair recognition for real achievement.
When we punish Caucasian family’s with children who earned their GPA’s, when their pushed aside by students with lowers scholastic results, but just earn a privileged spot in line due to their specific ethnic heritage, we are not better off in the long run than before AA.
Also I do not recall Asians ever being favored typically because of their heritage, I understand they put a lot of effort in rearing their child to be exceptional students, and because of that effort they achieve their goals by earning them. I don’t track it and I never hear that complaint about AA involvement regarding their need of ethnicity favoritism either.
There will never be a political answer to the real answers to create successfully graduating students, and if the country is going to come back from our declining world position due in no small part to this failing Administrations medaling in every thing from Sports team ownership, to punishing people for their own prosperity, all the time avoiding real needs in the USA without addressing the need to pull this country back into one United group of people, well thats what you get from AA. This Untied States of America is going to need real leaders, real fast! And the type of leaders who come from fighting through adversity, not just from cutting in line.
In any case, Good post on PS ‘s part
Let’s see Chris, how do you evidence a drumbeat that plays in the background constantly and is accompanied a plethora of specially targeted classes and set aside programs for minorities/women (making them the now special classes/races). Wat message have we been sending, particularly to young white men (and asians) for decades?
You wrote: “Every professor I’ve had who has dealt with the issue has strongly emphasized that guilt and shame are useless emotions.”
Great! But does it matter when white privilege is touted as something that must be overcome or smashed…and with the left by redistribution and and special set asides and favors to create a false “equality” or equality of outcome. How discouraging might that be to a white young man? He has done nothing to create inequality but he gets to pay the price for generations of oppression (Oppression often meted out first by same race opportunists selling people into slavery or third world tyrants).
The so-called obstacles people of race and gender face today are minimal and in many cases not unlike the obstacles that everyone faces. some of it self inflicted. There are too many successful people of all races and genders to make this case. People get to compete and they get to hone skills if they want to compete. And people don’t always get what they want. Race and gender inequality has become a cottage industry for “educators” and politicians and it has to stop. The industry is creating division, undue resentment, and citizens with psychologically induced broken wings.
Harold I agree. Its time we started treating expecting people to compete for their place in society and move ahead on achievement and merit. It’s also time our educators in K-12 learned to have authority in the classroom again and insist that all students are respected as human beings. No special status for race, gender or religion.
Freedom, respect for others, and personal responsibility..the American way!
“How discouraging might that be to a white young man?”
Well, since as far as I know I’m the only white young man who posts here, I’ll tell you: it isn’t discouraging at all on a personal level. It is a fact that I have certain societal advantages that POC and women do not have. Why would that discourage me from doing my best? If anything, it is discouraging on a societal level, because I know that this situation is very hard to change. But it’s not discouraging on a personal level.
But the very fact that THIS is the question you think we need to focus on proves that white male privilege exists. You believe that the most important thing to discuss in conversations about racism should be the feelings of white men.
Thanks for proving that we live in a society where the concerns of white men are deemed more important than the concerns of others.
Re #2 Chris :
“The writer of this piece shows zero understanding of what white privilege is etc.”
Am I the only one who notices the pattern here? This latest screed from Chris is perfect for dissection and deconstruction. Any takers?
The messenger is stupid and not nearly as brilliant as the writer?
Pie: “This latest screed from Chris is perfect for dissection and deconstruction. Any takers?”
Pie, I’d honestly love to see you dissect and deconstruct my points, because to do so you would have to actually engage with and respond to them, which would be a welcome change of pace from the personal attacks. You’re up, pal.
Some statistics regarding male privilege:
“Report after report has revealed depressing statistics about how fictional women are presented on screen (not to mention the depressingly low number of women employed by Hollywood and their frustratingly unequal paychecks). According to The Women In Media Center, women held only 28.4 percent of speaking roles in 2012’s top 100 films and they were about three times as likely as men to be partially naked. Geena Davis’ Institute On Gender In Media found that men outnumber women 3-to-1 in family films (the same was true back in 1946) and that in most crowd scenes women make up only 17 percent of the group. Another analysis found that of the 2013 Oscar nominated performances, male leads averaged 85 minutes of screen time, while female leads averaged only 57. And according to the Center For The Study Of Women In Television And Film, women accounted for only 15 percent of protagonists of the top grossing films of 2013. It’s quite clear—as it has been for some time—that despite making up 50 percent of the population (and 52 percent of movie audiences), women are not being represented on screen with the same diversity and agency as their male counterparts.”
http://www.avclub.com/article/bechdel-test-fine-just-way-it-203956
Women make up half of the world, but our society still privileges the perspectives of men. Specifically, white men.
Re #9 Chris : Piss off. I have already been down this road with you on more than a few occasions. I have your number. My query is that is if anyone else sees through the specious and noxious poison you spew. Does anyone else see your pattern? That is the question.
A Princeton student does what ?!?!?
An endless source of mirth, this blog.
Chris: “You believe that the most important thing to discuss in conversations about racism should be the feelings of white men.”
Well Chris since white privilege was supposedly delivered to this generation predominantly by old white men, and since women have been denigrating white men for decades, and since boys have been shoved to the back of the classroom and stuffed with Riddlin as feminists tried to tame their natural tendencies with scorn rather than athletics and dodge ball, and since feelings and fairness have become more important than character or justice I think making young white men is extremely relevant.
Your position as the only young white man serves only to demonstrate how indoctrinated into the psychobabble our current generation is.
This young man stood up to say in essence…I’m not playing this retarded game.
Good on him!
As for your statistics they show nothing about women except that women are not all interested in working and they are not all interested in all jobs that men do. Numbers or percentages don’t tell us what has motivated women. They don’t tell us what their choices and circumstances have been. Deciding that these numbers are the result of white male privilege is nonsense.
Geez, Chris, do you really want to live in a society by the numbers? Sorry sir you can’t get that teaching degree…too many men now have those positions.
Freedom…learn to appreciate it! If a woman can’t get enough jobs as an actor maybe she should consider starting her own production company. There were plenty of wealthy women (feminists) in Hollywood to float a business like that. The problem is they don’t thin like a man would…they whine and complain. they aren’t liberated when they do that.
Chris, the Man Burner.
“and since boys have been shoved to the back of the classroom and stuffed with Riddlin as feminists tried to tame their natural tendencies with scorn”
I going to assume you mean Ritalin, and you’re not saying that feminists have waged a sinister campaign to keep our boys down with tiresome riddles. 😉
I’ve heard a lot about how boys’ “natural tendencies” are somehow being oppressed by feminized school culture, as opposed to the Good Old Days when Boys Were Allowed to be Boys. It’s so nonsensical I don’t understand how anyone could believe it. In the Good Old Days, if a boy was being rowdy he got the dunce cap if he was lucky and a beating if he was not. The “War on Boys” in our schools is a myth based on a ridiculous view of history.
“This young man stood up to say in essence…I’m not playing this retarded game.”
Ugh.
“As for your statistics they show nothing about women except that women are not all interested in working and they are not all interested in all jobs that men do.”
Bahahahaha!
Yes, of course. It all makes sense. Everyone knows that ladies just aren’t all that into acting! It has always been the manliest of pursuits. That’s why filmmaker are forced to write so few parts for women–they just can’t find enough to fill the movies!
And you say *I’m* indoctrinated? You have managed to become completely invested in upholding and making excuses for white male supremacy, and you don’t even notice it.
“If a woman can’t get enough jobs as an actor maybe she should consider starting her own production company. There were plenty of wealthy women (feminists) in Hollywood to float a business like that. The problem is they don’t thin like a man would…they whine and complain.”
Wow, what a brilliant idea. Why didn’t any woman in Hollywood ever think of this before? You are truly smarter than all of them combined.
Thanks for the laugh this morning, Tina–I needed it.
Yes, Pie we see the common behavior pattern Chris has with other progressives; Jay Carney, Juan Williams, Tommy Vietor to name a few. It’s like they all went to the same communication class.
Here’s Vietor’s latest.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2014/05/01/Dude-This-Is-Like-Two-Years-Ago-Bret-Baier-Grills-Former-NSC-Spokesman-On-Benghazi-Coverup
Another funny thing is that those who argue that schools used to allow boys to roughhouse and, I don’t know, scratch their butts with impunity before the mean feminists came along to take fun away, are the same people who finger-wag about how kids aren’t taught respect in school anymore, and teachers and parents need to crack down and stop coddling these spoiled brats.
So as usual, for an educator it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Screenwriters have been explicitly told not to include scenes in their movies that feature two women talking about something other than a man. This is just one perspective, but complaints like this one are fairly common:
http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-film-schools-teach-screenwriters-not-to-pass-the-bechdel-test/
But yeah, keep telling yourself that the reason for the gender disparity is that women just aren’t that interested in getting jobs in Hollywood. Apparently, according to Tina, acting, writing and directing movies is about as attractive as coal mining to women.
My question is directed at Chris’ modus operandi. It doesn’t really matter what the subject is, he always follows the same specious script and commits the same mindless fallacies over and over. He is like a broken record. It doesn’t matter how much I satirize him and throw his asinine, juvenile garbage right back in his face. This poor, supremely arrogant fellow is completely oblivious and has no sense of introspection. Like his mentor, Quentin Colgan, he has all the earmarks of the classic sociopath.
The saddest thing about this Chris is that he is locked into a dysfunctional behavior pattern that I believe will control him for the rest of his life. He never fails to follow his scripting in these pages. I have to wonder who did this to him. Who created this pathetic automaton? His professors? His parents? His destructive and poisonous political neurosphere of the extreme left?
Pie, “Bro Burner” would have been much cleverer.
What fallacies have I committed? Be specific. You keep making accusations against me without any evidence whatsoever to back them up. Put your money where your mouth is.
Always happy to have made someone smile. I think the sentence at the end of the first paragraph where I left out the word “pay” is much more mirth inducing.
Once again Chris since you are young so your experience is limited. The dunce cap went out in my grandparents age. Paddling was still popular in some schools in the early fifties but was phased out in most schools pretty quickly…probably a mistake.
Nutty notions that dodge ball is too violent would have been laughed out of school. Giving everyone awards so no one will feel bad is definitely feminine inspired and ridiculous. All kinds of changes have come with the feminist movement, some of it good, but much of it horrible in terms of raising strong men with a sense of pride about being men and having a special place in society.
” Everyone knows that ladies just aren’t all that into acting…”
Acting? Now we are running all the way back to Shakespeare’s time to prove women can’t get a break? Sad. How about deep sea fishing or oil rig work? Both take a worker away from his family for weeks or months at a time; both are grubby hard work. Few women want those jobs. the other side of the coin is that MOST women like support positions, caring positions. Surprise…women are different generally and motivated by different things generally. Women hav eavoided science and engineering.
It isn’t that there aren’t some women who want to do some of these male dominated jobs. It is that the statistics are not due to privilege…not white privilege and not male privilege. They are due to the choices women make and the preferences they have.
” That’s why filmmaker are forced to write so few parts for women>
And you studied literature? Dear boy men are more interesting in the movies…they are the romantics and they are the heroes! Women supply motivation quite often in a story but for the majority of stories we need males to make them interesting! Gina Davis made a couple of good movies where she played the tough guy hero… in one she was a pirate and the other an assassin who had lost her memory. She did a bang up job; she was believable. But at the end of the movie everyone knows this is pure fantasy Women will never become the dominant figure in the movies. The older actresses knew instinctively and played women with character. Dedicated actresses today emulate them…they don’t try to play the part men play.
“making excuses for white male supremacy”
The term white male “supremacy” is a joke built on fantasy much like the movies. If we examine history through a distorted lens we can make anything up. White males have managed to do better but not because they set out to oppress others. They set out to win…they set out to excel…they set out to discover…they worked and fought hard. They gained advantages but they worked damn hard for those advantages and we have all benefited greatly from it. Dr. Ben Carson is one of many examples of people choosing to move right on through the struggle to achievement. We should be teaching what motivated and inspired him. I can tell you for a certainty it was not an attitude that the world owed him because it was unfair! It also wasn’t an attitude that expected the white man to sit the game out so others could catch up.
“So as usual, for an educator it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t.”
B.S. and poor baby. If you think I flap my gums for such a stupid purpose you are grossly mistaken. As long as you do want to teach it might make more sense to be interested rather than flippant. A person who never listens to anyone but those who agree with him never learn a thing. I’m being critical of my own generation. Is there any chance that hindsight has given me a perspective that might be informative and useful? I’m not asking you to go back to the fifties and sixties. I’m asking you to be smart, learn from the mistakes of the past, and apply what you learn.
“Wow, what a brilliant idea. Why didn’t any woman in Hollywood ever think of this before? You are truly smarter than all of them combined”
Being a jerk doesn’t get the question answered. Why DIDN’T they?
Why didn’t they (feminists) decide to build golf courses, create women’s clubs, start their own companies and build them up so they became huge corporations run almost exclusively by women? Why didn’t they fight to create an all women’s special forces unit? why did they insist on integration of the armed forces instead of proving their equal capability? The answers are the key to this entire discussion.
Instead they protested…went to court…invaded men’s private spaces and demanded entrance. And early on when it was suggested that all women’s colleges include men? They rejected the idea!
Why didn’t they just do the work? That is what white men did. that is what all people do who are successful. The idea that color and gender play the major roll in the modern world about how things turn out is a distortion.
A better question for those who “feel” oppressed would be, what are the things that make people successful? Teaching people to carry resentment around won’t do anything for them. Teaching them that they have it harder than others also doesn’t do anything for them. Pushing people to the back because their ancestors were successful and others ancestors were slaves or “only moms” (pathetic) won’t make them successful. Teaching people, indoctrinating them to develop and adopt these attitudes will not serve them well and it certainly does nothing to advance society.
“complaints like this one are fairly common…”
Of course they are…they are dripping with that resentful crap attitude!
And by the way…profits are the reason for making movies…it’s called earning a living by following a passion. If women want rolls that put the dialogue they want in their mouths then let them make it happen. That’s what men did. They made movies that people would flock to see. They didn’t win every time either. I suspect that some of the movies these women want to make would not appeal to enough people to make it worth it.
People resist things in life that are just the way it is. “Life is hard, water is wet, and mother is mother” ~ Werner Earhart.
My generation went a little nuts, got full of itself and then tried to make their own personal issues and perspective, as well as their resistance, everybody’s problem. One of life’s truths is that nobody can live life for you. Another is after age five or so a kiss won’t make it better, It’s up to you to learn to navigate life’s bumps and plow through barriers.
Pie: ” I have to wonder who did this to him.”
Chris came to these pages as a very bright, engaged, polite young man who was eager to learn. I complimented his parents and particularly his mother who he said raised him pretty much alone. He had the typical compassion of a young person but lacked the wisdom and experience that life dishes out.
As he moved toward graduation he became a cookie cutter leftist…the transformation was frankly shocking. Told me a lot about the condition of our colleges. I doubt that most who make their lives in that world have no idea how foreign their ideas are. The more conservative educators I’m aware of don’t have that automaton affectation.
Tina: “And you studied literature? Dear boy men are more interesting in the movies…they are the romantics and they are the heroes! Women supply motivation quite often in a story but for the majority of stories we need males to make them interesting! Gina Davis made a couple of good movies where she played the tough guy hero… in one she was a pirate and the other an assassin who had lost her memory. She did a bang up job; she was believable. But at the end of the movie everyone knows this is pure fantasy Women will never become the dominant figure in the movies. The older actresses knew instinctively and played women with character. Dedicated actresses today emulate them…they don’t try to play the part men play.”
The only response I can muster to this is that it’s sad you believe this about your own gender, and I feel very sorry for you.
One more thing: I like that I’m the brainwashed one because I don’t believe that men are inherently more interesting or dynamic characters than women as a result of biology. And that someone would actually be surprised to see that someone who has studied literature wouldn’t automatically understand that men are more interesting.
What a very, very depressing viewpoint.
Chris fancies himself a “Bro Burner”. Fair enough, but “negro burner” fits this vile, 18th century knuckle-dragging racist bigot posing as an anti-racist hero more accurately. If there is anything funny about this despicable fool, it is that he presumes to preach compassion and sensitivity while practicing the ultimate in condescension and callousness. There is a real knee-slapper for you, folks.
Heaven help anyone, much less the President Of The United States, for crossing the path of this depraved sociopath who would seek to torture-execute by burning alive any black person who transgresses his sensibilities.
Re #21 Chris : “What fallacies have I committed? Be specific. You keep making accusations against me without any evidence whatsoever to back them up. Put your money where your mouth is.”
Been there, done that on multiple occasions. The heck if I would bother with that useless pursuit again, you hopeless pissant with a head of brick. If you have to ask, AGAIN, you truly are an ignorant and hopeless schmuck. A jackass knows more about calculus than you will ever know about formal logic and rhetoric. The only funny thing here is that you actually fancy yourself an expert. So, piss off clown.
Re #23 Tina : Looks like Chris was destroyed by the “education” typical of liberal academia. Graduate? Really??? From college? If so, he must be a Chico State English major, a booby prize if ever there was one.
Very sad to hear Condoleezza Rice pulled out of giving the commencement speech at Rutgers, because of the protest against her actions when she was Secretary of State.
Wonder how Hillary will be treated in the future for her actions as Secretary of State when Benghazi and all of her other failed policies, like Ukraine took place during her watch.
Condoleezza Rice pulls out of Rutgers speech after protests:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-rice-rutgers-20140503,0,5933949.story
Re #23 Tina : “I complimented his parents and particularly his mother who he said raised him pretty much alone.”
That explains a lot. Chris is obviously taking his deep seated anger issues with an absent father out on Post Scripts. Doubtless his father, when he was around to influence his son, treated him with condescension and callousness. So. of course, that is how he now treats others, including people who happen to have abundant melanin in their lovely skin which he would burn.
Could make for a worthwhile film script.
Chris: “The only response I can muster to this is that it’s sad you believe this about your own gender, and I feel very sorry for you.”
Believe what about my gender? That we are not men? That when we try to be men it doesn’t quite come across because it’s not authentic. That the problem with hard core feminism is that it evolved out of bitterness…a woman’s worst enemy.
You want to see good female roles in movies. Try observing strong women like Bette Davis or Kathryn Hepburn…Maureen O’Hara is another, a more feminine in style. These women didn’t compete to be like men; they knew who they were. They were a force to be reckoned with…and it came across on the screen.
I stand by my reasoning. Men are who they are women are who they are. People can do whatever they want but they have to achieve what they want by their own efforts and creativity. Affirmative action is crap.
Men will still always have more work in films because they are more interesting and because they are the romantics…women want that and men want to be that…and they are the heroes…women want that and men are that.
It’s nature…it’s the way it is…and we are unhappy only when we resist.
Save the sympathy, Chris I am very happy and satisfied to be a woman and I realize the biggest barriers to success in life are the ones we place in front of ourselves. (Like the idea that men oppress women so I don’t have a chance to be X unless the government makes rules to force my spot in the world…pure garbage and a waste of energy)
“What a very, very depressing viewpoint.”
The truth will set you free. I am free, Chris. You are the one all bound up trying to make things fair and attempting to make cookies by changing basic traits.
The House is considering a National Women’s History Museum on the National Mall.
Who will be in it and what will be said about them?
Who Should Tell the History of American Women?:
“The House of Representatives is slated to consider a resolution next week that would move toward building a National Women’s History Museum on the National Mall. One only need look at what’s taught in many of the Women’s Studies departments on college campuses to understand why the idea of a National Women’s History Museum run by feminist scholars and historians is of concern to those who actually care about history and women.”
Winston Churchill famously said, “History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.” And that’s the concern of those who believe the history in this museum will be told by only one side.
http://blog.heritage.org/2014/05/02/tell-history-american-women/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Peggy kids are protesting speakers from this administration too. The first lady was asked not to come to one recently. Maybe they are all just fed up in general.
It is too bad about Condoleeza Rice. She is such an accomplished person and very well rounded. I imagine her speech would have been inspirational.
Re #29 Peggy :
Condoleezza Rice states, “I understand and embrace the purpose of the commencement ceremony and I am simply unwilling to detract from it in any way.”
The Secretary Rice is, as she has always been, an exceptionally intelligent, energetic, capable, compassionate, respectful, and reasoned human being. Too bad the same cannot be said for Rutgers faculty and students.
My bet that next up for Rutgers will be banning The Constitution. That shoe fits. Not because of their treatment of Secretary Rice, but because it fits their academic mentality.
http://dailycaller.com/2014/04/24/another-university-stops-students-from-handing-out-constitution/
Tina: “Men will still always have more work in films because they are more interesting”
Men are more interesting to you. You’re trying to pass off your subjective interest as an objective, biological fact. I’ve heard many arguments about natural differences between men and women, but I have to tell you I’ve never heard anyone argue that men are by default more interesting, and act as if that is somehow a scientific assessment that explains the gender disparity in Hollywood. So, points for novelty, I guess.
I honestly think I’m done at this site, at least for a while. Aside from the constant barrage of verbal assault from one particularly uncivil and dishonest poster, which goes unremarked upon by the more civil members of this site whilst my every word is scrutinized, this place simply isn’t offering up the quality of debate I used to expect. Thanks for giving me a place to air my dissenting opinions, but I’m out for now.
Pie what do you want to bet that these administrators:
…led the charge for “FREE SPEECH, MAN” in the sixties…ugh.
It breaks my heart that these thuggish controlling morons have taken over at universities and colleges around the country.
Re #35 Chris : “I honestly think I’m done at this site, at least for a while.”
HOOORAY!
Make for more than “a while”, you phony, vile, racist wannabe negro burner, bigoted pissant! A long break from your incessant drivel would be welcome.
Re #31 Tina : “Men will still always have more work in films because they are more interesting and because they are the romantics…women want that and men want to be that…and they are the heroes…women want that and men are that.”
I can’t agree that the men are more interesting. Or that they get more work. I find the women far more compelling, even though my movie heroes are actors and directors such as John Wayne, Robert Mitchum, Jack Palance, Jimmy Stewart, Yakima Canut, John Ford, Alfred Hitchcock, Billy Wilder, Frank Capra, Clark Gable, Yule Brenner, William Holden, and Gary Cooper just to name a very, very few.
I find the women far more exciting and compelling. Katherine Hepburn, Bette Davis, Vivien Leigh, Elizabeth Taylor, Judy Garland, Ava Gardner, Audrey Hepburn, Barbara Stanwyck, Greta Garbo, Maureen O’Hara, Irene Dunne, Lauren Bacall, Ingrid Bergman, Olivia de Havilland, Marlene Dietrich just to name a very, very few. Hubba hubba! These great women actors did NOT play roles that were merely sex interest fluff and any dork who says that have is an ignorant ass.
Tina, have you ever seen the only movie I have ever liked from Kevin Costner? Check out “Open Range”, Annette Bening is outstanding!
In any case, this whining about women not being as important or as successful in the entertainment business is simply the usual left-wing progressive bullshit from a dickless wimp. I’ll agree that women, historically, may have had a tougher row to hoe, but when one considers the success women like Lucille Ball, Carol Burnett, Mary Tyler Moore, Oprah, and Martha Stewart (to name a very, very few) one has to wonder what progressive dorks like Chris are bitching about.
What I do sorely miss are all the classic character actors. Character actors for me were the folks who made film really work. Where are the people to replace Marjorie Main, Paula Trueman, Madeleine Taylor Holmes, Irene Ryan, Chill Wills, Gabby Hayes, and Walter Brennan to name a very very few. Where are the progressive pissants complaining about the unappreciated subclass of character actors?
Re #18 Chris : Frankly, that whole piece sounds like absolute bullshit to me. And I doubt it translates into the reality of film making, or at least great film. It could be that the progressive professors at UCLA are churning out bullshit in a town and industry so progressive it stinks with it.
I am not surprised you would buy into such bullshit. Enumerate the number of real film scenes that have two women talking about men or not talking about them and get back to me. Otherwise you and the author of that angry screed can piss off.
Pie: “I find the women far more exciting and compelling.”
I knew that you would.
I find the women you mentioned, and quite a few who work today, compelling also.
But I’m not talking about abilities, talent, or powers of sexual attraction.
I’m talking about what makes movies interesting and the things men can and choose to do naturally, just because they are men, make for interesting scripts. They are more likely to take the lead, to be adventurous, to discover and innovate. Men are more willing to risk on average, to organize, to do crime, and so much more willing to risk in romantic situations. Much of what women are most likely to do makes women valuable and important in life (and they’re also nice to look at) but not particularly compelling when it comes to writing a great script. There are exceptions of course and I enjoy movies that feature women in unusual situations. I’m talking in generalities.
I like all of Kosner’s movies but as a fan I’m admittedly less picky and less likely to critique. But you’re right, “Open Range” was a good movie and Annette Bening was wonderful. But you have to admit, the movie was not about Annette Bening’s character. In fact, except for her character, the remainder of females in “Open Range” were extra’s. The men, and there were several, were the main focus of the story. Bening’s character became a compelling motivator for Kosner’s character and his life changing choice in the end.
I just watched Zero Dark Thirty again last night. Jessica Chastain plays a real life person…a dedicated, formidable, hard boiled, and smart woman but she was also not the guy water boarding the captured terrorist or the guys that dropped out of the sky to break into the compound. She was not the American who risked going out in the streets to find the lead making phone calls…the that men did all that. Even when they were water boarding the terrorist, she is standing back in the room…the one who steps forward after the guy leaves the room to softly tell the terrorist to just tell the truth…she stayed authentically in character as a woman…a strong woman, yes, but a woman. She wasn’t a woman trying to prove she could be just like a man by playing at being a man…savvy?
Now, a woman who’s playing a man makes for great comedy…remember “Switch” with Ellen Barkin and Jimmy Smitts? (One of my favorite lines in that movie was delivered by Jo Beth Williams (Reminded me of Rita Haywood a bit) whose supporting role was terrific…also liked what Lorraine Bracco did with her character)
I love movies…love them! Have watched movies of all kinds through many decades. In another life I’d choose to do the camera work. I would also love to be a John Barry, because I love his work and I love music. But I’m not an expert or student just a fan so my opinions come from that perspective.
Oh, there was a movie that was primarily made about women…they still needed a man to lead them…but the script was definitely about women! Do you remember a film called “Westward the Women” with Robert Taylor and a slew of women? That was an excellent movie featuring women with grit! One if I recall was Margery Main…I loved her when I was a kid. (And Thelma Ritter!) But Robert Taylor was necessary in Westward the Women…it wouldn’t have been authentic without his character.
Temple Grandin with Claire Daines was a good movie and she did an amazing job but the story doesn’t repeat…it’s an exception.
The difference between men and women is pretty important considering it’s what makes it possible for the world to go on from a human perspective. 😉
Chris: “You’re trying to pass off your subjective interest as an objective, biological fact. I’ve heard many arguments about natural differences between men and women, but I have to tell you I’ve never heard anyone argue that men are by default more interesting, and act as if that is somehow a scientific assessment that explains the gender disparity in Hollywood.”
You read a lot into what others say, Chris: “…act as if that is somehow a scientific assessment”?
Get a grip…we’re just talkin’ here.
You want to tell me how I’m wrong I’d love to hear it.
“…this place simply isn’t offering up the quality of debate I used to expect.”
I suspect the opposite is true and you are playing rabbit.
Nice bit of arrogance tossed over the shoulder as you make your exit though…very dramatic!
Dewey: You said C Rice lied. What are you talking about? Exactly what did she say that was a lie and not based on intelligence reports that were wrong? Once again you are making these drive-bye accusations and you omit the specifics that would allow us to investigate.
Dewey you are embarrassing. You never express a thought of your own; you rarely have information or data to share just criticism randomly and hatefully spewed.
Re #40 Tina : On “Open Range” we will just have to agree to disagree. I see this film very differently and in the same light that I view many of the great western films.
Absolutely, you are correct, the protagonists are exclusively men and they comprise the majority of film time. But I see them as the vehicle for Annette Bening’s character to shine brilliantly as the central message of the film. She (and her brother) and the two civilizing elements of the film, which I happen to think is the core message.
Film is a complex art and the central message of a film does not necessarily revolve around the main protagonists. I believe Costner’s intent was to make Annette Bening’s character central to the entire tale. Even though she gets far less film time than the men. That no other woman is given the same scripting consideration strengthens her cinematic importance to the story. Without her character “Open Range” would have just been another action shoot-em-up outrage/reckoning/justice tale. Don’t get me wrong, the film was great as that too. Excellent action and build-up to “The Reckoning” with the great Robert Duvall, no less. (I love Duvall.) But it was the Annette Bening character and the humanity she represented that gave the film its true depth, quality, and meaning. Without here it would have not been the superior story telling that is was. And the supporting character actors were outstanding casting choices.
Well, in my humble opinion anyway. I have a weakness for Westerns.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0316356/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Pie: I see them as the vehicle for Annette Bening’s character to shine brilliantly as the central message of the film.”
No disagreement there…she is, as I described, a motivator. She represents civility and the men who dominate in the story are compelled by her toward civility. This goes along with the central role of women in society as the civilizing force. Like you, I thoroughly enjoy the well written and directed parts women play in stories, especially when they give stellar performances, as Bening did here. Without these women stories are empty in a lot of cases. (Life is too) Even in stories that feature all male characters there is always the wife/family/sweetheart at home far away…something longed for …something to fight for…something that drives them to do what men do, and what men must do, in some instances to secure, preserve and further civilization.
Michael Jeter was fabulous in his small part too…he always is! RIP
Chris always thinks my purpose is to put women in chains…not at all. My purpose is to set women free…free from the phony lies, free from blaming men, free to really choose what they want instead of being directed by the (often angry/resentful) feminist voices and the forces of popular culture. I’d like to see men set free also…free to be exactly who they are and free to revere, love and serve both women and the children they father together. (The standard is never without exception but it is still important…vital…to civilization)
“Without her character “Open Range” would have just been another action shoot-em-up outrage/reckoning/justice tale.
Agreed. Her character gives the story authenticity…it becomes reflective of life so…the audience can relate fully. Every stellar movie (story) has that kind of depth and texture. The moral element appeals to our better angels too, something we need to see more of in entertainment.
I do have to say that morality was also displayed in the characters played by Kostner and Duvall…as men, and particularly as men of that time. They both brilliantly displayed regrets about their lives and respect for each other, they handled the rustlers with a bit of cleverness and humor in “the cowboy way” (making them take off their pants!), they sought justice for their friend Mose, again in the cowboy way, and showed fatherly compassion for the boy who they predictably thought was a pain in the butt (probably reminded them of themselves).
Story line: “A former gunslinger is forced to take up arms again when he and his cattle crew are threatened by a corrupt lawman.”
It could be you are just responding to the romantic that I know is at the bottom/heart of all good men! As you should!
Women would be wise to look beneath the surface…most miss the whole show.
Ok you two, you’ve convinced me I have to see this movie. Off to see if I can find it On Demand.
Re #46 Tina : Thanks for taking the time to so excellently clarify! 😀 Yes, the male characters played by Duvall and Costner also had strong, proud, and caring socially redeeming qualities. Overall the film for me earned an A+.
By the way, the “Open Range” screenplay was written by a man, Craig Storper, based on the novel of a woman, the late Lauran Paine. Our discussion has reminded me to read Paine’s novel, which has been re-titled from “The Open Range Men” to “Open Range”.
Boorish progressive clowns like Chris are always trying to portray conservatives as slave-masters putting (insert group here) into chains. Such attitudes are part and parcel of the progressive charm.
Oh, forgot … No, I do not recall “Westward the Women”, but I will definitely put it on my DVDs to buy list. I colle
Oh, forgot … No, I do not recall “Westward the Women”. I just looked it up on IMDB but it does not ring a bell. I will definitely put it on my DVDs to buy list. I collect westerns and have a modest library.
And yes, I am a hopeless romantic.
Re #35 Chris : “I honestly think I’m done at this site, at least for a while.”
This is a threat?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Hey, your welcome Pie. I’m happy to talk movies anytime and always willing to take the time to clarify my position. I appreciate the chance to do so. Hope you find Westward the Women. Try Turner Classic Movies.
Original trailer here.
Oh, and it wasn’t Marjorie Maine it was Hope Emerson. As I watched the clip just now it occurred to me when they portray women with grit today too often they portray her as the equivalent of a man. In this movie women just did whatever they had to do to make the journey…and men got to be the compelling motivation! Still it’s an exception not the rule.